WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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 Posted:
Feb 06, 2012 - 22:41 |
 
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What about giving the Boggarts G access, but remove A? They end up with some good stuff, like Tackle, but need doubles for Dodge. Would make them a lot easier to kill with no Dodge. I'm sure there are downsides, your thoughts? |
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Olesh
Joined: Jun 24, 2010
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Feb 07, 2012 - 01:36 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | Olesh wrote: | | The real issue, again, is that a stunty guy who starts with wrestle/block can take dodge after one skill up and become a blodger, whereas a stunty guy who starts with dodge can only take block on a double. |
You're still equating Block and Wrestle and frankly (and obviously this is where we disagree) there is no comparison between the two skills. The only point at which Wrestle comes even close to block is when Block is prevalent (which in Stunty it certainly won't be).
Wrestle vs Dodge means you are safer as the blocker but less safe when the blockee. Overall I don't think the difference makes them OP, it just makes them different |
All else being equal, without wrestle, block, or dodge there are three sides on the die that can injure you. Block/Wrestle remove the possibility from one of those sides, while dodge removes the possibility (absent tackle) from a different one. Block is advantageous against blockers who have no Block themselves, Wrestle benefits regardless of whether the opponent has Block or not, and Dodge applies only if the enemy has no Tackle.
This was never about the merits of Wrestle vs Block, however - it was about giving a very generally useful doubles skill to a lineman who has no G access.
| WhatBall wrote: | | What about giving the Boggarts G access, but remove A? They end up with some good stuff, like Tackle, but need doubles for Dodge. Would make them a lot easier to kill with no Dodge. I'm sure there are downsides, your thoughts? |
This is pretty much the exact opposite of improving the stated situation. G access is king in stunty leeg, which is why so few players have it, and always limited positionals.
Look, here's the deal: it's a lineman. Right now you've got the pricing listed at:
60k 6236 A Wrestle, Stunty, Foul Appearance, Regeneration.
Let's compare it to a Nurgling, which is 10k cheaper:
50k 5227 AM Dodge, Stunty, Regeneration.
One skill up on the Boggart gives it dodge and 80k TV. Nurgling requires two skill ups, one of them a double, in order to pick up Wrestle and Foul Appearance for a total of 100k TV. The Nurgling costs 20k more and is only AG2.
I could pull up some other linemen and offer more examples, but why? It's not balanced. You've suggested a lineman that, as-is, blows every other lineman in stunty out of the water.
You want to make them unique? You want to give them a legitimate downside? (Not starting with dodge doesn't matter in the long run when all your linos can pick it up first skill!)
Give the boggarts ST1 and drop the price to 50k. They'll be like Skryre Slaves, but between Foul Appearance and Regeneration they're a lot more durable. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Feb 07, 2012 - 01:50 |
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Thanks for the feedback. Will have a good look at the roster and adjust. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Feb 07, 2012 - 02:30 |
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| Olesh wrote: | | Wrestle benefits regardless of whether the opponent has Block or not, and Dodge applies only if the enemy has no Tackle. |
But the benefits of Wrestle aren't comparable with Block (No armor roll for them, and you're also prone) when the opponent doesn't have block (which is most often the case in stunty). And Dodge also has the additional, non-block, related benefits.
| Olesh wrote: | | This was never about the merits of Wrestle vs Block, however - it was about giving a very generally useful doubles skill to a lineman who has no G access. |
Agreed, it's "generally useful", but I don't think it's so good that a price adjustment can't balance it.
| WhatBall wrote: | | What about giving the Boggarts G access, but remove A? |
Um.. No, no, and again, Hell NO!  Way bad idea!
| Olesh wrote: | | It's not balanced. You've suggested a lineman that, as-is, blows every other lineman in stunty out of the water. |
I actually agree with you here, the player as presented is not balanced. TBH I was more interested in the Wrestle vs. Dodge issue because I suggested it for the Eshin (0-12 Eshin Adept 50000 6 2 3 6 Stunty, Wrestle A )
| Olesh wrote: | | (Not starting with dodge doesn't matter in the long run when all your linos can pick it up first skill!) |
Hyperbole to be sure... (Most stunties don't survive for the "long run" especially not without dodge)
| Olesh wrote: | | Give the boggarts ST1 and drop the price to 50k. They'll be like Skryre Slaves, but between Foul Appearance and Regeneration they're a lot more durable. |
Possibly an interesting idea.. St 1 and Wrestle makes for some interesting play ideas... Although I am loath to dole out St 1 on too many players unless it's highly warranted by other reasons (e.g. Fluff). |
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Olesh
Joined: Jun 24, 2010
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Feb 07, 2012 - 03:25 |
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I think they could be more closely balanced leaving them as-is and just doing a price adjustment - if you bumped their price by 20k, they match up pretty equally with a nurgling with two skills. But at that point, you have 80k linemen in stunty and that's just a bit silly. Really, they feel more like positionals as-is, which to me says they either need to BE positionals and new linemen created, or something from the stats/skills has to be pruned.
Generally speaking, the only guys in stunty who start with quite that many useful skills have ST 1 as a drawback.
Anyway, fluff is nice and fluff will certainly influence a design's goals, but not to the point where it hamstrings balance (and by doing so, FUN). And frankly speaking, you can justify anything in fluff if you try hard enough. Focus on the important aspects, i.e the team gimmick. It not only has to be fun to play, it also has to be fun to play against. I don't feel the majority of people would be that interested in playing against a team that's got an unfair advantage, which is why balance is so important for new designs. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Feb 07, 2012 - 06:09 |
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Doh! Thanks Olesh. |
Last edited by Craftnburn on %b %07, %2012 - %07:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Olesh
Joined: Jun 24, 2010
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Feb 07, 2012 - 06:45 |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Feb 07, 2012 - 10:11 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | Olesh wrote: | | (Not starting with dodge doesn't matter in the long run when all your linos can pick it up first skill!) |
Hyperbole to be sure... (Most stunties don't survive for the "long run" especially not without dodge) |
Again an old LRB4 tick. With the new stunty rules the players are much more durable, as the probability to get seriously injured or killed is effectively halved.
As a side note, the new OFAB rules also make massive OFAB teams (i.e. Strigoi) more viable in the mid-high TV. I expect BH to be over 75% for these teams. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Feb 07, 2012 - 14:56 |
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| zakatan wrote: | | With the new stunty rules the players are much more durable, as the probability to get seriously injured or killed is effectively halved. |
However they still have very low armor and ways to be injured abound (even more so than in regular BB) with all the SWs around. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Feb 07, 2012 - 15:30 |
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| Olesh wrote: | I think they could be more closely balanced leaving them as-is and just doing a price adjustment - if you bumped their price by 20k, they match up pretty equally with a nurgling with two skills. But at that point, you have 80k linemen in stunty and that's just a bit silly. Really, they feel more like positionals as-is, which to me says they either need to BE positionals and new linemen created, or something from the stats/skills has to be pruned.
Generally speaking, the only guys in stunty who start with quite that many useful skills have ST 1 as a drawback.
Anyway, fluff is nice and fluff will certainly influence a design's goals, but not to the point where it hamstrings balance (and by doing so, FUN). And frankly speaking, you can justify anything in fluff if you try hard enough. Focus on the important aspects, i.e the team gimmick. It not only has to be fun to play, it also has to be fun to play against. I don't feel the majority of people would be that interested in playing against a team that's got an unfair advantage, which is why balance is so important for new designs. |
Thanks for the feedback Olesh, CnB, et al. I want the Bogey team to be a huge nuisance team, fitting with their fluff. (We should move this to the Bogey thread btw, I will update it soon so we can.) I definitely am not aiming at making them the top team. I want them to be one of the harder teams to play against, but also, have trouble of their own. Will have a good think and update them today. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Feb 07, 2012 - 22:57 |
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Rostered bribes have been touched on a bit, so in that vane, what would you propose for bribes for each team if it was doable? I envision them as similar to Rerolls and as something that can be used to balance the teams quite a bit in Stunty.
E.g.*
Goblin Cheaters 0-4 Bribes 50K each
Chaos Halflings 0-3 Bribes at 60K each.
*These are just examples, no thought went into them for pricing, balancing, or quantity. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Feb 07, 2012 - 23:02 |
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| WhatBall wrote: | Rostered bribes have been touched on a bit, so in that vane, what would you propose for bribes for each team if it was doable? I envision them as similar to Rerolls and as something that can be used to balance the teams quite a bit in Stunty.
E.g.*
Goblin Cheaters 0-4 Bribes 50K each
Chaos Halflings 0-3 Bribes at 60K each.
*These are just examples, no thought went into them for pricing, balancing, or quantity. |
i'd price rostered bribes the same the teams pay for them as inducements. That is, 50k for goblin cheaters, and 100k the others. As if they were bought using petty cash.
I'm afraid that would require some love from C and from Kalimar, and Kalimar is not spreading so much love lately. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Feb 07, 2012 - 23:05 |
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I don't know if I'd keep goblin cheaters at an advantage in stunty. Unlike regular CRP teams, many teams in stunty have secret weapons, and while none have quite as many as the goblin cheaters, they are still central to the team. I would say that bribes should be the same price for everyone in stunty, whether that's 50k, or 100k. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Feb 15, 2012 - 22:02 |
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alright....the last of the LRB6 compliant changes have been made....
some of the previous suggestions have already been added to the current wave, but the majority of these changes were to make the current rosters as playable as possible, and reduce the breakage as much as possible...
some things will still not be implemented because they require client changes(ie: weaponry), so those will be coming in the future...
changes that have taken effect are as follows:
Eshin
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Night Runner - change Poisoned Dagger to Stab
Forest Goblins
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Stikka - change Stakes to Stab
Gnomes
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Dwarven Cannon - change Blunderbuss becomes Hail Mary Pass, Pass - increase MA to 4
Mad Bommaz - Bomb becomes Bombardier
Goblin Cheaters
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Bomber - change Bomb to Bombardier
Pogo Stick - change Pogo Stick to Leap, Sprint, Very Long Legs
Horrors of Tzeentch
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Firewyrm - change Bomb to Bombardier
Flamer - change Bomb to Bombardier - change Pogo Stick to Leap, Sprint, Very Long Legs
Skinks
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Adept to Sotek - change Poisoned Dagger to Stab
Skryre Slaves
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Deathroller - change Deathroller to Break Tackle, Juggernaut, Dirty Player, Mighty Blow, No Hands
Poisoned Wind Globadier - change Bomb to Bombardier
Sharpshooter - change Blunderbuss to Hail Mary Pass, Pass
Snotlings
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Deathroller - change Deathroller to Break Tackle, Juggernaut, Dirty Player, Mighty Blow, No Hands
Squig Herders
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Squig Hopper - change Claw to Mighty Blow
Squig - change Claw to Mighty Blow, change Pogo Stick to Leap, Sprint, Very Long Legs
please note, these are changes to make the rosters LRB6 compliant, and are not long term changes...the next wave of changes which will probably take effect in 2-3 months, is to update rosters with new LRB6 functionality, and possibly add some new races as well...
keep up the discussion, and thanks for everyone's input 
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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Skolopender
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
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Feb 15, 2012 - 22:12 |
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HUGGLES! |
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Lobbying for a Troll team. If Bonehead Ogres can have one, why not one for Trolls? Power to the Trolls! |
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