SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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 Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 01:18 |
 
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Here's something I think can be pointed out to be totally in error:
| Craftnburn wrote: | | SillySod wrote: | | Craftnburn wrote: | | assuming no skills involved |
this is the stupidest assumption ever, you didn't even consider assist's |
As assists will go both ways, and more often than not AGAINST the Screamer (if he's blitzing the ball carrier) they can't really be included in the equation. What I meant was that Block or Tackle skill on either player is unlikely and not figured into the statistics.
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Assist's will be far, far, far more likely to be in the tzeentch players favour. You know why? It's because the tzeentch player is the one choosing the block.
I do know what you meant about block and tackle though, I just thought that ignoring assists was a huge oversight.
| Craftnburn wrote: |
| SillySod wrote: | | agreed, trouble is that this is superb mobility when combined with Mv 9 (not to mention TTM). note that snotlings have to be only movement 4 to stop their skill from dominating. |
Snotlings aren't 0-2 and can actually DO something with the ball if they get to it.
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Snotlings can make excellent skirmish screens very effectively and suddenly. Having two players who are garunteed (almost) to move into any position to protect a ball carrier would be a huge bonus to any team.
| Craftnburn wrote: |
| SillySod wrote: | | not necessarily. a canny player will ensure tha the screamer is used only to harras the ball carrier, popping it loose, wherever it is on the pitch. it also has enough move to hit the ball carrier AND escape. Clever coaches will abuse this player. |
And Clever coaches will make sure that if a Screamer comes for the ball carrier he'll have assists against to prevent the ball coming lose, and probably take out the screamer. |
Assist's can be negated. Your ball carrier also has to step out from deep in his own half at some point too. His cage isn't going to hold for very long if you know what you're doing. A player is also very brave to cage against a team with a free wizard.
As I said before, the balance of the team is unimportant at this stage, your post was just too stupid not to flame though. Concentrate on the concept. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 05:40 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | SillySod wrote: | | Craftnburn wrote: | | assuming no skills involved |
this is the stupidest assumption ever, you didn't even consider assist's |
your post was just too stupid not to flame though. |
I say no skills involved and you start talking about assists... and yet you call my post stupid?
Furthermore, your comparison of CHAOS DAEMONS to beetles simply boggles the mind.. I suppose you're attempting to justify your nickname?
And lastly, You seem to insist on being an insulting jerk, Why?
Rules to remember:
1. Everyone has a right to an opinion
2. No opinion is automatically correct
3. Everyone should treat others with respect or risk being ignored.
I think at this point I'll invoke # 3. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 05:58 |
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| pac wrote: | | Craftnburn wrote: | | pac wrote: | | Incidentally, why go for No Hands in the first place? |
Because Screamers, Discs and Flamers actually DON'T have hands e.g. Screamers |
Yes. Neither do Beasts of Nurgle. Did you read my post? |
Of course I did, perhaps I should have gone a step further and pointed out that Screamers and Flamers don't even have tentacles much less hands. I assumed No Hands would be obvious given the picture I provided.
I'd originally considered not having No Hands on Discs since the fluff about them says they can magically manifest tentacles, but I expected to hear how they were "Insanely Overpowered" or complaints that they'd be the primary ball carriers and positionals shouldn't do that in stunty.
I understand your concern that they shouldn't be playing bloodbowl.. but it's not like there's some regulating body running things. BB games (especially Stunty games!) would often be ad hoc affairs which are poorly organized, if organized at all. If they weren't most teams wouldn't be allowed to play... |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 08:00 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | I understand your concern that they shouldn't be playing bloodbowl.. |
It's not a concern. And it's not that they "shouldn't".
It's a statement: they cannot play Blood Bowl. QED.
Wait for me to write the rules for Blood Polo, and then disc riders may have a game to play … (Although even in that the fact that they can fly may still present a small problem …) |
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Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi  |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 08:32 |
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| pac wrote: | | Craftnburn wrote: | | I understand your concern that they shouldn't be playing bloodbowl.. |
It's not a concern. And it's not that they "shouldn't".
It's a statement: they cannot play Blood Bowl. QED. |
As we both know, there are other legal players for whom this is true, thus the ability to hold the ball is not an absolute requirement for playing blood bowl. Apparently the disagreement is simply how many of these players should be allowed in a given match. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 14:14 |
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BTW, I make it that six people have commented on this list. All of them have made criticisms and you've made only the tiniest cosmetic adjustments (AV/MA/costs) in response.
I don't even consider it to be a team in the first place, but even among those who are prepared to look at it as such hardly anyone has a good thing to say about it. Doesn't this tell you there might just be one or two flaws?
The free wizard is another thing which is nonsense: and, no, you can't justify it with fluff. Tzeentch is a Chaos god - and the gifts of the Chaos gods never come without a price! |
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In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi |
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nonchalance
Joined: Dec 20, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 14:48 |
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While I'm not particularly good on balance questions, I think it's particularly telling that all the comments have been negative. Most new team attempts get at least a couple of "hey, this is okay", unless they're just not going to work; even bad concepts usually get a bit of "well, amybe if this was changed...". You might just have to shelve this one, man.
Sorry. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 17:51 |
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| nonchalance wrote: | | I think it's particularly telling that all the comments have been negative. |
Any psychologist can tell you that any new idea is far more likely to attract negative commentary than positive. It's psychologically easier to tear down a new idea down than to support it. I've been involved in game design in various systems for over 20 years, I understand it's simply human nature, so I'm not at all surprised.
That said I've listened to the commentary and have attempted to make adjustments to accommodate, while still keeping the vision for the team intact. Perhaps my mistake was placing the such an early draft online and offering to let the community help in the development from such an early stage.
Posting in an open thread doesn't make someone an authority (especially me). I don't mind if people disagree so long as they do so constructively. Which some have done, and some have not. Again, typical for the process. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 18:07 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | SillySod wrote: | | SillySod wrote: | | Craftnburn wrote: | | assuming no skills involved |
this is the stupidest assumption ever, you didn't even consider assist's |
your post was just too stupid not to flame though. |
I say no skills involved and you start talking about assists... and yet you call my post stupid?
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Yes. Your origional post used stats which were farsical. You ignored a fundamental aspect of the game in an attempt to justify yourself. I considered this stupid, especially when you went on to "explain" why the assisting rule wasn't important to team design.
What makes it incredible is that your stats were wrong even in their own self contained absurdity. 12.5% is not 1 in 6.
| Craftnburn wrote: |
Furthermore, your comparison of CHAOS DAEMONS to beetles simply boggles the mind.. I suppose you're attempting to justify your nickname?
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No. This isn't one of those times. I wasn't comparing the two I was comparing the faulty logic of your argument with a beetle related statement.
| Craftnburn wrote: |
And lastly, You seem to insist on being an insulting jerk, Why?
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If someone says something stupid I tell them it's stupid.
| Craftnburn wrote: |
Rules to remember:
1. Everyone has a right to an opinion
2. No opinion is automatically correct
3. Everyone should treat others with respect or risk being ignored.
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Excuse me? What gave you the right to state those rules? Problems with:
1) + 2) Fact and opinion are two different things. No one has the right to tell others that a known fact is wrong to prove their point then say it's just their opinion so you're not allowed to knock down their argument by saying it's wrong.
3) Respect is relative. I consider that reading a post in it's entirity before flaming it would be a basic element of respect. You clearly don't. Respect isn't something that some people deserve either.
Would you prefer that I lied and told you your ideas were fabulous? Would that be respectful?
| Craftnburn wrote: |
I think at this point I'll invoke # 3. |
Not really a threat since you don't seem to read past the first line of most posts.
This team could work but you have to be prepared to move on some pretty big points. You aren't, so I'll ask Pac if he has the power to lock the thread? |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."
Last edited by SillySod on %b %09, %2007 - %18:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 18:08 |
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| pac wrote: | BTW, I make it that six people have commented on this list. All of them have made criticisms and you've made only the tiniest cosmetic adjustments (AV/MA/costs) in response.
I don't even consider it to be a team in the first place, but even among those who are prepared to look at it as such hardly anyone has a good thing to say about it. Doesn't this tell you there might just be one or two flaws?
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Shall I take your appeal to popularity as agreement (or at least acquiescence) with my last response to your claim that it's "not a team"?
I understand your concerns with the No Hands players, but your argument that they're "not a team" because of it doesn't have merit. Perhaps we could simply agree that you don't think the number of No Hands players available on this roster is appropriate, work forward on that basis and dispense with the incorrect assertion that bloodbowl players must be able to hold the ball to be bloodbowl players. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 18:15 |
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You can't do wrong can you?
Your arguments could be used to justify ANYTHING.
As a fellow stubborn person I would advise you (again) to step back and take stock. Even if you are right and we are completely wrong then your team is still never going to go anywhere. Either make some radical changes or ditch the team. Anything else is going to be no more productive than hitting your head into a wall. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Enar
Joined: Mar 05, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 18:22 |
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Keep digging Craftnburn, you're bound to strike gold eventually....  |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 19:17 |
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| Enar wrote: | | Keep digging Craftnburn, you're bound to strike gold eventually... |
I never expected the first attempts to be perfect. But if we never try anything different, things would be pretty dull. I imagine most of the stunty teams that have been added faced a heck of a lot of criticism and underwent significant revision before being accepted as they are now. If this were easy, we'd already be playing these teams.
Despite what some think, I do read every post and comment I get on this. I've changed some things, considered others, and I expect I'll make more changes before it's through. Just because I don't agree with a suggestion or comment doesn't mean I've ignored it. But it also doesn't mean I have to accept every suggestion as gospel. Despite my disagreement with Pac, I respect his opinion and give it weight, just like any other well reasoned comment. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 19:35 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | … and dispense with the incorrect assertion that bloodbowl players must be able to hold the ball to be bloodbowl players. |
It's not an incorrect assertion.
Try this: let's play a game where you have a team with any stats you like whatsoever. Pick from your wildest fancies. I will use a standard Human team. However, all your players have No Hands.
I guarantee you that you will not win. 
Edit: Craftnburn, if you're serious about designing a Tzeentch team then I suggest looking back at other, earlier proposals (aka, ones with fewer No Hands players) for ideas, and then coming back with a heavily reworked draft.
The Chaos Spawn is probably fine, and I think something could probably be done with Flamers. However, Screamers and Discs will have to go: for example, Discs are Tzeentch's riding beasts, and (as I've already noted) we don't see horses, cold ones, juggernauts, daemonettes, wolves, (etc) in Blood Bowl. (But Blood Polo will be awesome! Patience fans! )
I would prefer to see Horrors split into Pink and Blue: but then I prefer fluff that goes back to Realm of Chaos, as those books are probably the best GW has ever published (and also date from the same period as the foundational BB fluff). |
_________________
Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2007 - 19:48 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | Shall I take your appeal to popularity as agreement (or at least acquiescence) with my last response to your claim that it's "not a team"? |
I don't know why you're including random links. I'm not making the appeal to popularity: you did, by posting your suggested team in the first place. When the people didn't make the noises you want, apparently it's their fault. 
I do not withdraw my assertion that it's not a team: I have already posted a complete breakdown of all existing players in BB (including Stunty) which can't hold the ball, and only Squigs constitute anything approaching a precedent. |
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