cjohnsto
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Apr 02, 2003 - 00:24 |
 
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Look I think that it is pretty simple. Fouling IS a valid tactic but that doesn't mean you should overuse it. I feel that it is slightly over powered with DP, I suggest either possibility of longer lasting consequences or changing DP (Make DP imune to IGMIOY). But there are more urgent rule changes that need to be implemented ie PO should fall over when ever used even if unnecisary to break armor.
DISCLAMER: Before people start posting "Your stupid, you stupid head what do you know?", like they did yesterday in a discussion .These are my oppinions, if you don't agree fine, but it is one of the areas i think need improving. |
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DMNT
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 02, 2003 - 12:13 |
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| Darkwolf wrote: | | Certain rules or systems exist in game mechanics . For example, certain NHL hockey teams use a system called the trap. It is clogging up the neutral zone and limiting chances. The trap is used by less skilled teams against better teams and players. It is boring and not fun to watch. I consider coaches who NEED to foul to remove players to score as 'trap coaches'. You are not good enough or smart enough to win without it. |
Let me tell you another example from another sport. I play basketball and my position is center. Not everyone likes the way I play in defense, pushing the opponent outside the key and holding him there. If he manages to get inside the key I foul whenever someone tries to pass him the ball (unless we're in the penalty and he gets two shots for that). Sure, I get ejections and my average is around 3,8 fouls / game, but that is the price I have to pay for preventing the opponents' scoring. Preventing them to play inside the key also helps taking away the guards' and forwards' shots as they can't get any room back there as our guards don't need to help me inside the key. As a result, our team was third in the series with no exceptional players.
There are tactics for different teams with different players. I don't think that fouling is evil. Don't be so attached to your players. They're just bytes on the Internet. |
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Cute
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 02, 2003 - 12:51 |
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For the record, i don't mean to say anything about noone wanna play, it is ONLY the fouling part i wanted to discus, people can play or not, nomatter to me, there are 500 other coatches  the only thing i asked was why people whine so much about it and i have seen nothing that can make a serius agument why they whine. I'll keep up my evil tendansy's to play hard and recive hard  |
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Cute
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 02, 2003 - 12:58 |
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And uhh ohh ihh ahh, don't tell me about what i have played and haven't played, i play woddies rl sorry about that statement if it hurt anyones fellings in any way, i take it back and make this then, I have had better luck getting ssp's as woodies in fewer games, then the basherteams i have played rl... better? |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 02, 2003 - 18:12 |
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| Cute wrote: | | For the record, i don't mean to say anything about noone wanna play, it is ONLY the fouling part i wanted to discus, people can play or not, nomatter to me, there are 500 other coatches the only thing i asked was why people whine so much about it and i have seen nothing that can make a serius agument why they whine. I'll keep up my evil tendansy's to play hard and recive hard |
It seemed to me you were whining, since soft teams wouldn't play against your annihilation-machine. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 02, 2003 - 18:17 |
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| Cute wrote: | | And uhh ohh ihh ahh, don't tell me about what i have played and haven't played, i play woddies rl sorry about that statement if it hurt anyones fellings in any way, i take it back and make this then, I have had better luck getting ssp's as woodies in fewer games, then the basherteams i have played rl... better? |
Of course, initially you might develop faster- but try to keep a Woodie Team at TR 200 range while playing against basher-teams at least every second match. Unless you roll lots of doubles and ST+1s (I played against a 5/5 Wardancer the other day who could have been 5/6). At that range you are no longer competitive - you might win as far as TD's are concerned, but your TR drops significantly very often whereas the basher's still increases. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 02, 2003 - 18:32 |
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The point is:
Fouling, Get the Ref and the DP-skill as they are right now, seem inadequate to me with regard to how game mechanics should work in general. Fouling is only a risk as long as you don't dominate the game. As soon as you control the game you can foul at will without any lasting consequences. If you've already decimated that 10-player Woodie-Team to 4 players, and their coach is only anticipating the final whistle, there is nothing that deters you from further fouling. This a flaw in the game-mechanics since it is annoying to have your entire team thrashed into oblivion senselessly. If there was a real risk involved which would make you foul only, when it is necessary, I would have no problem with that. I think a 50% chance of a suspension for the next game (analoguously to mng) might be the solution to accomplish just this. (And come on, the DPs in basher teams are more than expendable, we're talking Zombies and Beastmen here).
And Get the Ref should only last for one drive I think, not only is it utterly broken in combination with DPs, so far it's also completely silly to get Get the Ref twice in one half. At least a risk of 1/6 should remain for each foul. |
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Ixnatifual
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 02, 2003 - 22:50 |
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You rarely need to pass or catch to win with an undead team. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 03, 2003 - 14:17 |
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In my opinion it's ok to foul. For some strange reason, I don't think people even foul here a lot. I've only played a few games, which end up both players fouling each other after every turn. I don't understandd why some people start complaining the minute you push a player into the crowd or foul their star players. It's all part of the game. I hate losing good players as much as anyone else, but it happens.
Let's just say, that if someone PO's my players, the last thing they see is my lineman's boot  I don't mind people POing, they're perfectly allowed to do it, and when they are lying on the ground, it's my turn to return the favor by taking the PO out.
well, that's just my opinion... |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 03, 2003 - 15:42 |
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| Odi wrote: | | In my opinion it's ok to foul. |
That's not the issue here.
The question is whether the current fouling-rules are sound with regard to how game mechanics should work.
I seriously doubt they do. If they worked properly, there wouldn't be this discussion. |
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Petter
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 03, 2003 - 17:49 |
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| Darkwolf wrote: | Like I have said, I do not need to foul to win. I can remove or minimize a coaches best players without fouling. I can win without fouling. Last night I had to engage in fouling versus a higher ranked HE team. I tied him on the last play of the drive b/c I executed my offence. Fouling had no part of my hard fought tie.
Certain rules or systems exist in game mechanics . For example, certain NHL hockey teams use a system called the trap. It is clogging up the neutral zone and limiting chances. The trap is used by less skilled teams against better teams and players. It is boring and not fun to watch. I consider coaches who NEED to foul to remove players to score as 'trap coaches'. You are not good enough or smart enough to win without it.
- Fouling as a tactic in tourny's, playoffs etc is fine and of course the obvious advantages are there. Fouling in 1 up games is not my forte. I will use DP to limit PO mino's or black orcs or other 'unoriginal' type basher players. I also used my DP to remove another coaches DP.
- Like I have said countless times. There are ALOT of poor coaches and poor players. I have yet to see a beastman with pass or catch or two heds. Instead I see a barrage of piling on, claw or RSF. Then I am fouled b/c the other coach whines "I cant score like you, I cant get as many SPP as an elf team." You have fucking 4 PO beastman and you complain you cant score?? Try taking some skills that make it easier to score.
- FOULING= BAD COACHING. Prove me wrong. |
I like to play elven teams sometime. Unlike some other pansies around here, I enjoy playing my elven teams versus virtually any kind of opponent. Hence I face teams with;
* Minotaur; Block, PO, MB, RSC, Tackle
* CW; Block, PO, RSC
* CW; Block, Tackle, MB
* CW; Block, PO
* CW; Block, Claw
... etc
Now, I like to equip my elven teams with 1-3 DPs. Why? So I can play teams with players like the one I just mentioned. If somebody decides to use PO on me to get to use those RSCs, you bet I'm going to foul.
This makes my players live longer, it gives me more players on the field and I take the edge off a team built to win games by making enough Cas for the opposing team to be broken down.
Hence, I just proved you wrong, Darkwolf. |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 03, 2003 - 18:43 |
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| Odi wrote: |
In my opinion it's ok to foul.
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| Then Mirasceal wrote: |
That's not the issue here.
The question is whether the current fouling-rules are sound with regard to how game mechanics should work.
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| But when Cute started the thread he wrote: |
. . . i foul when i need to and if i see a point in it, like i can't see why the dodgy little elfs whine that the "big bad slow undead" try to desimate the numbers of players couse when the elfs are at full numbers i can't posible stop all of em . . .why do people whine so much when i foul... can't you see it is a way to win...[Am I] wrong when i say it's part of the bloddy bowl game? |
I think Odi is addressing the issue here. The post was started asking if fouling was part of the game or not, and why do people whine about it. Not "People won't play me." Not "IS fouling a VALID tactic?" And not "I foul and win, does that make me a bad coach?" It was simply, "Why do people whine so much about a rule?" And if your answer is "Because Fouling is broken." Then that is your answer. No need for further discussion.
At least 3 pages of this thread of nothing to do with what the poster was asking (including my second and third post), and mudslinging against "Basher" and "Poncy" teams, has just devolved the discussion further.
Asperon Thorn
[edit]usual reasons, grammar etc.[/edit] |
Last edited by AsperonThorn on %b %04, %2003 - %00:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 03, 2003 - 23:35 |
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| AsperonThorn wrote: | | I think Odi is addressing the issue here. |
Asperon, you're right with that. Actually, I mixed up this thread with another one.  |
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Adar
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 16, 2003 - 01:27 |
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I have to side with the people who think that fouling is a valid tactic. Sure beating at your opponent every turn is pretty stupid but a few fouls can be very handy especially against Dwarfs where you need to crack their armour.
In my last game I played against Chaos Dwarf, we are both rookies (acually my team held sub rookie standard with a strength of 85). He had two Bull Centaurs and a minotaur. I managed to get one of the BCs on the ground so I jumped on him to take him out of the game which ment I managed to take out one of two of his speedy guys. Smart? Definatly...
In the same game a Hobgobblin fell down in the wrong place so he hindered my movement, so I handed him a boot in his face to get him out of the way. Smart? Yes as it ment I was able to get the ball further upfield.
Why would anyone complain about that? |
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Deth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 17, 2003 - 06:45 |
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OK, a couple of quick points:
1. I've not played a single game of Javabowl as yet, but I've been playing Bloodbowl for a fair while. This means I might be mistaken about some game mechanics, feel free to correct me.
2. 'Basher' teams kinda rely on getting their opponent on the ground to win. Especially in the early stages, before you get some specialised players developed. Anything that achieves this aim is playing to their strengths. Personally, I foul whenever I can. It's a perfectly legitimate tactic for me: less people on the field means that when I pick up the ball and fail for the third time in a row it doesn't mean an automatic TD against me.
Did I mention how much I love to hate playing Chaos teams when it comes to actually playing the ball? : )
3. The whole 'No SPP for casualties by dirty player' thing removes one of the major incentives to foul for me: I kinda like it, it stops Dirty Player being my skill of choice to develop a player. That alone moves fouling waaaaay down my priority list.
4. I will always be upfront about my homicidal tendancies. If you don't want to play me because of it, fine, that's your call. I'm probably going to call you a coward & a daisy sniffing elf-pansy, but hey... you deserved it for playing such a fruity team in the first place : ). But you will never come into a match against me without knowing that I'm going to do my level best to annihilate your team.
5. I may not be a bad coach, but I play one on TV.
Deth |
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