garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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 Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:47 |
 
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Although we have the minmax issue I think 15% is a good limit for Blackbox and ranked. Although you don't often see the star players it does in general give people a challenging game. The bbox matchmaking isn't something the site does badly. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:06 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | Also both divisions are heavily based on 'coaching skill'. Fumbbl's elo system does penalise coaches for playing down, however you do have the problem of how much do coaches care about CR compared to getting a win. |
They are NOT heavily based on coaching skill. that's why Tigga's idea doesn't work. 
A lot of the users are not looking for a highly competitive game and if you try to force that you lose your critical mass and the division dies.
BWR is actually hidden for everyone outside the top 10. We're showing CR for people who play maybe 1 or 2 ranked matches a year. |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:31 |
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| Carnis wrote: | | Lizzies are an exception to the rule though. Getting the 7th saurus star *really* benefits the team. A lot of the stars are like that, but most teams dont get as big a difference from it. |
I disagree. Yes, most of the stars won't always help you a lot. But they don't have to: They have to fit your next opponent only and help you there!
Depending on your opponent, many teams have great stars to counter - and I will only count Stars with a value less than 300k:
Amazon: ST4 Bargain, AG5 Leap Witch, mobile Big Guy
Chaos: AG4 Goblin and a second Big Guy (if you want he can even throw)
Dark Elf: Hypno Gaze or Multiple Stab or ST4 Block MB Strip Ball
Elf: Hypno Gaze or ST4 BlockTackleWrestle or ST4 Block MB Strip Ball or AG5 Blodge Leap
Goblin: Ball and Chain or Pogo Stick or Big Guy
Halfing: ST4 Bargain, mobile Big Guy
High Elfs: Hypno Gaze or ST4 BlockTackleWrestle
Humans: Zug
Khemri: Real ball handlers or a ST4 Blitzer
Lizards: Either Slann (filling the "normal" position) or a 7th Saurus (with Block Guard)
Necros: ST4 Blitzer or ST4 Werewolf
Norse: ST4 Werewolf
Nurgle: AG4 Goblin and second Big Guy (who might throw)
Ogre: Mobile Ogre or throwing Ogre with AG4 Goblin or Pogo Stick
Orc: 2nd Big Guy or ST4 Blitzer or Pogo Stick
Skaven: Ball and Chain or ST4 Claw Blitzer or one of two Gutterrunners
Slann: Saurus with Block and Guard
Undead: ST4 Blitzer
Underworld: Ball and Chain or ST4 Claw Blitzer or stabbing Gutterrunner
Vampire: ST4 Werewolf
Wood Elf: ST4 Bargain, Hypno Gaze or AG5 Blodge Leap |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:34 |
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| dode74 wrote: | | True, but the fact that some are above and some are below what they would otherwise be suggests a weak correlation. That, and looking at how TS is calculated, which in no way resembles TV or TR. |
Thats not true dode, TS was very similar to TV in a lot of ways, it may be a little more complicated and look very different on paper but the end result was much the same.
TR was abviously the LRB4 rules. Ts was brought in - and it measured teams skills number of re-rolls etc... rather than SPP like TR. I wouldnt be suprised if the whole TV idea was taken from FUMBBL in the first place since a number of the BBRC memebers used to play here when TS was introduced and Galak said that stuff about how fumbbl showed how perpetual leagues can work yadayada yada with specific reference to TS.
The only major difference between TV and TS is that TS went up if repeat numbers of skills were taken, especially the most effective ones, so teams that spammed Dirty Player would pay a little more for their skills after X amount of them appeared on the roster, same story for Guard and blodge etc...
So TS actually worked a little better than TV in someways because it almost split skills in to tiers which is something many people on TFF have said should have been done with CRP. But using TS in line with TV would be fairly pointless because for the most part they would be pretty similar if TS was re-dopne for this rule set.
Also as Random Oracle says you cannot look at teams now and say the TV is different to their TS because many skills have changed and so have their measurements but believe me it was pretty similar in many respects.
| dode74 wrote: | @Woodstock
| Quote: | It shows lack of testing and a wrong mindset. You buff one skill, and nerf its counter into the ground. You make a passive skill counter an active skill. Fend is not like tackle that works both ways.
The only inducements worth are wizard and chainsaw, and both of them still rely on good dice. |
Testing was carried out in the Vault. I don't have access to that data but I understand it worked. Personally I don't see an issue with CPOMB, but that's a whole different matter. |
I dont think the Vault really tested enough games though, also weren't most of the games tested on the PBeM client as well? which I play on and it makes side step (one of the best skills in the game) completely pointless because you cant use it properly. So that alone would probably see Fend taken a hell of a lot more than it other wise would.
| f_alk wrote: |
Up to now, the complaints have not come from real leagues of [L], but only from the open non-league environment, and especially from the one environment that doesn't allow the option to just "lose without ill effect" (or as you'd call it in [R]: "not play the game at all"). |
Have any leagues been around long enough to feel the effect of CPOMB or min maxing etc... yet?
I don't think so, out of the 3 I am in; 1 is still in its first season the other 2 are in their second. I don't think we will see the true effect of this combo for sometime in leagues. Especially because most of them allowed Grandfathered teams to continue which I was really gutted about. But even now there are a few leagues that have already brought in Galaks house rule for Pile On because the fear of that combo destroying their league is so great. |
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Last edited by Garion on %b %10, %2011 - %10:%Oct; edited 3 times in total |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:44 |
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this thread is troll-heavy. |
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uuni
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:53 |
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A big +1 for dode!
***
There are many reasons why I would like to see the 15% rule gone or at least widened on the Box. Most of them have already been mentioned.
Thank you dode and harvestmouse on your takes on minmaxing. I would like to see minmaxing discussed more thoroughly.
The 15% rule also limits us to only a subset of CRP BB. Higher TVs could be reached. I have calculated, that with FUMBBL's resource of infinite or at least more than 100 games for a team it should be possible to reach much higher TV's than we currently do. With properly played Delves or Necros for instance I believe that 3,5M could be reachable. Sadly, currently it is not so, as you cannot get any games when your TV is high enough.
The 15% rule prevents a rise of new CRP legends to match the Terrifying Anarchists of Naggaroth (about 4M).
The FUMBBL day cycle is graphed in the following picture. TR (or TV/10k) is the y-axis and time is the x-axis. Every dot is a team that started a finished match at the time of x and at the TR of y. The dots have more green with more TDs and more red with more CAS.
Currently, apparently it is the BB7-league that makes it possible to play those low TV matches in the bottom of the graph. The highest TV has been with little less than 2,8M.
***
Regarding the traits, I find myself agreeing with Galak with mixed sentiments (http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?p=612296#p612296 - proposed houserules): | GalakStarscraper wrote: | I'd be fine if you brought back traits ... one trait in each category and make it so you can only get the trait if you have access to the category and roll doubles:
Then do:
General: Block
Agility: Dodge
Passing: Leader
Strength: Guard
Mutation: Claw
And it is valued like a doubles roll so +30 to the player.
Then I'd be fine with bringing back traits for Garion and Darkson. And yeah ... I am serious with this suggestion. You want VARIETY in rosters ... that should do it for you. Would be interesting to see what would happen with the game if the above were in the rules.
Tom |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:58 |
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| uuni wrote: | I have calculated, that with FUMBBL's resource of infinite or at least more than 100 games for a team it should be possible to reach much higher TV's than we currently do. With properly played Delves or Necros for instance I believe that 3,5M could be reachable. Sadly, currently it is not so, as you cannot get any games when your TV is high enough.
The 15% rule prevents a rise of new CRP legends to match the Terrifying Anarchists of Naggaroth (about 4M). |
The intention of the rules is meant to make reaching those TVs nigh-on impossible. So in that respect the rules do work as intended. I know from Dodes other commments that he would also hate teams to reach TVs that high for any amount of time. I don't think changing the 15% rule would make it any easier for teams to reach such high TVs either really.
Im also not a fan of that suggestion by Galak, making the basic skills of the game over priced would lead to far more turn overs than you currently get due to lack of Dodge and Block for dodging and blocking. It would also make teams that start with those skills uber effective and completely ruin other teams like vampires for instance that start with no skills. I prefer the idea of traits being brought back or Joemajis Tier of skills list in that thread.
edit: also Galak didn't even put Pilling On in that list which i find quite worrying considering it is one of the main problems with this ruleset and the only skill that breaks the fumdamental rules of bloodbowl - "no re-rolls can be used for armour and injury" |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:12 |
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| Quote: | Galak with mixed sentiments (http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?p=612296#p612296 - proposed houserules): [quote="GalakStarscraper"]I'd be fine if you brought back traits ... one trait in each category and make it so you can only get the trait if you have access to the category and roll doubles:
Then do:
General: Block
Agility: Dodge
Passing: Leader
Strength: Guard
Mutation: Claw
And it is valued like a doubles roll so +30 to the player.
Then I'd be fine with bringing back traits for Garion and Darkson. And yeah ... I am serious with this suggestion. You want VARIETY in rosters ... that should do it for you. Would be interesting to see what would happen with the game if the above were in the rules.
Tom |
Totally missing the point... And no, the 15% TV limit does not mean teams can not reach 3.5M... Spiral expenses and the crappy apo take care of that. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:25 |
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Well, yes, I think we've established long ago that Galak and co, had no idea of what they were doing with the new PO rule. |
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Tigga
Joined: Dec 21, 2007
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:32 |
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| koadah wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: | | Also both divisions are heavily based on 'coaching skill'. Fumbbl's elo system does penalise coaches for playing down, however you do have the problem of how much do coaches care about CR compared to getting a win. |
They are NOT heavily based on coaching skill. that's why Tigga's idea doesn't work.
A lot of the users are not looking for a highly competitive game and if you try to force that you lose your critical mass and the division dies.
BWR is actually hidden for everyone outside the top 10. We're showing CR for people who play maybe 1 or 2 ranked matches a year. |
I personally think the fastest way to lose critical mass and have the division die is to carry on with the current system. The number of [B] games has dropped from 1700 p/w to 900 p/w in the last 30 weeks, despite total games staying roughly constant. Is this because people are getting frustrated at minmaxing? Potentially. My idea heavily reduces minmaxing, that's why my idea works. |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:35 |
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But then so many had so many other no ideas about what the changes would bring. Remember the long long thread about how broken CRP is because now teams can collect gazillions of cash and then for eternity stay on a TV of 3 million? |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:46 |
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that one wasnt their faul mind, the BBRC all wanted the bank rules but JJ said no because it is apparently too complicated having two pots of cash. one that added to TV and one that didnt to a maximum of 150k or 100k they hadnt decided that part yet |
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BillBrasky
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:58 |
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Overall I like his idea for an alternative matching system.
I also think 15% is too limiting. So maybe 33% + the restraints based on games played, etc? |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 13:54 |
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[quote="Tigga]
The number of [B] games has dropped from 1700 p/w to 900 p/w in the last 30 weeks, despite total games staying roughly constant.[/quote]
It is due to half the people playing league or ranked. League was moved over later to CRP. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 10, 2011 - 13:56 |
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| Tigga wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: | | Also both divisions are heavily based on 'coaching skill'. Fumbbl's elo system does penalise coaches for playing down, however you do have the problem of how much do coaches care about CR compared to getting a win. |
They are NOT heavily based on coaching skill. that's why Tigga's idea doesn't work.
A lot of the users are not looking for a highly competitive game and if you try to force that you lose your critical mass and the division dies.
BWR is actually hidden for everyone outside the top 10. We're showing CR for people who play maybe 1 or 2 ranked matches a year. |
I personally think the fastest way to lose critical mass and have the division die is to carry on with the current system. The number of [B] games has dropped from 1700 p/w to 900 p/w in the last 30 weeks, despite total games staying roughly constant. Is this because people are getting frustrated at minmaxing? Potentially. My idea heavily reduces minmaxing, that's why my idea works. |
More likely people get fed up with playing mostly vs chaos & chaos dwarves.
What does your idea do to fix that? |
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