sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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 Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 17:28 |
 
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| Candlejack wrote: | riiight... make ANOTHER division... that will _really_ help.. NOT...
if SO many people don't want to be ranked.. why does noone then want to play divx? it's not ranked.. has the LRB-compliant teams.. you can have 5 slots.. all like ranked.. the only main difference is.. it has no ageing, about most of the people bitch and moan most of the time..
just making another divison will not help at all, it will just split up everything even more.. |
Candle I still disagree. When I started I played Ranked. Because I was told too and I was told that here you get games.
Ok if people like the old me (careless about the number written on your page) are moved to an Open division, it doesn't change anything for them.
People that cares (like the new me) will recreate teams in renewed R and play again.
One thing I really really don't understand: Why do I usually hear:
why does nobody plays in [put here division of your choice] when guys that WANT to play in those divisions are always rejected in their approche.
Nobody plays Div X:
->introduce new races; answer No that's not what div x is made for
->then I create a 5 on 5 div x group Answer: No you aren't allowed to do that
okayyyyyyyyyyy. Then bye div x for me....
Ladder:
->put teams inactive; answer [sound in mute]
->try some advertising : answer [sound in mute]
recentely talking about it here and we found new players testing it....But there was here no admin job.
What I am SURE of: it's underused the potential of creativeness here.
(just a tought: wasn't Tournament stealing more and more parts of R by tournaments add and so on? Weren't they declared "contrary to what Fumbbl is made for?" and the ad possibilty in news simply removed? It could have been discussed but wasn't, well)
I do not accuse that there is any scheme to let other divisions die.
I do accuse that there isn't any scheme for something else exect Faction and Ranked. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 17:48 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | Nobody plays Div X:
->introduce new races; answer No that's not what div x is made for
->then I create a 5 on 5 div x group Answer: No you aren't allowed to do that |
This is because DivX is a testing ground for particular things, in this case "No aging and negative winnings."
| sk8bcn wrote: | Ladder:
->put teams inactive; answer [sound in mute]
->try some advertising : answer [sound in mute]
recentely talking about it here and we found new players testing it....But there was here no admin job. |
True, there is no admin currently taking care of Ladder. The admin in charge of DivX is hardly on-line recently either.
That said, an advertisement drive is possible, but it needs to have some incentive for people to start playing there as well, or people will just end up ignoring it and stick with the "same old" divisions (being conservative is human nature).
One major problem for me is the fact that #fumbbl defaults to only Ranked LFG. I would propose to have #Fumbbl be used for all divisions except Ranked and Faction, since those have shown themselves to be very popular and capable of sustaining themselves. Stunty should probably have its own channel as well.
This leaves #fumbbl with Ladder (dead, but revivable), DivX (low activity, and how much use is what is currently being tested?) and Unranked (moderate activity). Add to that some advertisement drives and perhaps Ladder and DivX can really get going again, while Unranked will certainly have an increase in popularity again.
Failing something of this sort, perhaps starting with just advertisement, perhaps in the form of a tournament (the last DivX tournament wasn't a great success, I believe, but perhaps something can be done about that...). A problem with this, however, is what kind of tournament will fit into the Ladder format?
Ladder as it is would make for a great division... Unfortunately it is vastly underpopulated, and being stuck in #FumbblLadder doesn't help it along.
Edit: After testing the Java Chat applet, I wondered if it was possible to make it connect to all of the official Fumbbl Division channels by default (or a couple of them, at least...) |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 18:04 |
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Well I know what would make them play Dx and Ladder  complete restart of teams and divisions, if you want to keep a team then move it to a [U] division but that only works for guys who dont mind losing their pixels  |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 18:33 |
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If #fumbbl is considered as the general channel and e.g. #fumbblStunty and #fumbblUnranked are separate channels, then we should have a separate channel called #fumbblRanked and have the channel #fumbbl only for discussion. As it is, the chat supposes ranked is the default environment for all the coaches but I for one play almost only tournament matches. There is rarely a discussion going in #fumbblUnranked or #FumbblStunty, so when I want to have a decent chat with fellow coaches I need to log on also to #fumbbl and have to endure all the Ranked match reports, ranked bb lfgs and other scheisse I couldn't care less about. It's just plain wrong. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 18:41 |
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@Mezir
You should use Normalized TS in your formulas, because the dif between 180 and 190 is nothing compared with the dif 150 to 140.
As for Ladder:
The best thing IMO would be to restart the division. Move all teams to divX/U and announce a championship. The team with the first place after a month gains something special (either magic gear, remove of all injuries from a player of choice etc.). Guys can make teams 2 weeks prior to the relaunch, but can´t play until the start.
This way you get a bunch of people playing and who knows.. maybe some guys keep sticking. |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 18:43 |
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| thesquig wrote: | I honestly believe the best solutions are simple ones. My solution would to make coach ranking public or private. Everyone would still have a coach ranking which was taken into account when a game is played. However, with a private coach ranking only the coach himself can see his actual CR but for public CR everyone can see it. This way people can opt out of ranking and still enjoy the open format. Perhaps even the total win % and games could be hidden also.
It would make cherrypicking harder since not everyone would have a visible coach ranking and people would have to judge on team records rather than CR. It makes it less competative for people with private CR and harder to cherrypick for people who enjoy their CR.
Opinions? |
I support this suggestion with all my heart! If you do not care about your CR at all, you can simply hide it.
As it is, in the case of some coaches, your CR will also affect the Stunty, Unranked etc. match offers you get when someone wishes to challenge you. So, in other words, if you make funky flings to ranked and play poorly, people will try to cherry pick you in other divs even if you would not have played ranked within the past two months but still kept your ranked team intact. You will be cherry picked continuously until you make a decent team to ranked and have a decent record with it, even if you play über matches in Unranked, have a huge win% (some of the pickers suppose you have played only your even noobier friends in U), even if you do not want to play ranked at all. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 18:59 |
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| brownrob wrote: | | Well I know what would make them play Dx and Ladder complete restart of teams and divisions, if you want to keep a team then move it to a [U] division but that only works for guys who dont mind losing their pixels |
Yeah, what a fantasitic idea!
I'm sure coaches having their teams forcibly moved to U, including the few remaining coaches that play divX (me included) will so LOVE losing all their teams in all divisions for NO FRIGGING REASON, leaving a divX with NO TEAMS TO PLAY AGAINST.
*applauds*  |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 19:03 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | @Mezir
You should use Normalized TS in your formulas, because the dif between 180 and 190 is nothing compared with the dif 150 to 140. |
The current formula doesn't use any normalisation whatsoever and I was basing myself on that. Adding normalisation for TS as well is a piece of cake, however.
Other than that, any comments on the formulas? |
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Wotfudboy
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 19:14 |
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Just my two cents: I like the ideas posted above of opting out/concealing Coach Ranking... I have no interest in CR, and would love to opt out. The only thing I'm interested in is playing games to win the game. Playing with honour and sportmanship (well, I try!). I've played few games in ranked these days, because my ranked teams have got to about TR200 and stopped... Dirty players in unranked tournaments are fine in the view that players will push themselves to do anything to get to the next round. In football leagues managers don't want their players to get yellow/red cards because they will miss games further down the line... however, in cup games, if it was a choice of getting to a semifinal/final I'm sure they wouldn't mind too much for taking out an Henry or Nistelrooy.
Unfortuantely for me I find myself not so much cherry picking, (ie to find "easy opponents") but instead performing some sort of multiple injury/RIP avoidance. Now I know people are going to say "well that is cherry picking!", but let me try to explain. My Necro team, for example, has no dirty players (in fact none of my ranked teams do), and 1 tackle (for hitting the ball carrier in my half). Trying to find a chaos/norse/CD/Dwarf/orc/lizard team out there without the obligatory 2+ dirty players and block/tackle/guard/mightyblow is near impossible.
I see little enjoyment in struggling to get a team to TR of 180+ only to get your better players stamped on. Teams, in my humble opinion, focus too much in ranked on gaining the spp's first and winning the game second. Being beaten to death by coaches who simply win by numbers gets a bit frustrating for me. I'll gladly take a sound tactical thrashing any time over watching foul after foul seeing off players I've groomed for a particular purpose. Ok, enough anti-fouling speak for now...
The trouble is, I want to test myself against all races with my particular team, but I see no enticement/reward for doing so, therefore I know full well other coaches are not encouraged to do this either. Having some sort of reward for playing a match against every race with the same or higher TR/STR doesn't currently exist. A well thought out medal system or something similar may encourage others to do this and I think would be beneficial to ranked.
Maybe also give bonus points to coaches (who care about such things) who have coached multiple types of races to a high TR. This would perhaps reward a coach for being a more rounded tactician? Again these are just ideas to spur on other more "fumbbl-brainy" coaches in action.
Another idea would be to encourage coaches to vary the skills they choose... say surehands or dodge on a chaos warrior instead of the obligatory block, claw etc, or sidestep/standfirm on a dwarf instead of guard/piling on (I forget which ones are doubles so don't flame me on this!). Can that be rolled in to the TR calculation? And before you say it, I am fully aware that elven teams for example are just as bad (sometimes worse!) in choosing dirty player or mighty blow if they can. I came up with a mad idea the other day... how's about remove tackle and dodge skills completely and allow teams to use as many rerolls they liked per turn, and make the dodge/splat dice face a push back/strip ball result instead. I think I'm inventing a completely new game here! :-p
The question I have to ask myself, and others I guess, is why are we so protective of our teams... they are just pixels to have fun with. But then you think of the games were you've sacrificied one player to keep another out of harms way, and all the time that you've taken in game hours to get the team where it is now, and then perhaps you can understand the protectiveness to a point.
Someone said earlier "Why not go to DivX?"... A) There are not enough games available there as yet, as you can tell from gamefinder, and for people like me who want to find a game quickly because they don't live in the fumbbl world day in day out.
Top work and big thanks to Christer and the gang... good or bad, they are part of a free service where we can play and enjoy ourselves. They are always looking for ways in which to improve our experience, as this thread shows. Cheers if you bothered to read my ponderings by the way... and apologies! :-p |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 19:25 |
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| Mezir wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | @Mezir
You should use Normalized TS in your formulas, because the dif between 180 and 190 is nothing compared with the dif 150 to 140. |
The current formula doesn't use any normalisation whatsoever and I was basing myself on that. Adding normalisation for TS as well is a piece of cake, however.
Other than that, any comments on the formulas? |
I was slightly drunk when I posted this, so i completely missed out on this....
Since the formula already uses Opponent Strength/Your Strength, that means there is already a difference between 190/180 and 150/140 (or both fractions flipped upside down). That means that Strength is not in need of normalisation, because in effect, it already is.
The same would go for my "Formula 1" that i posted. It's only when you started adding (Opponent CR - Your CR) to the formula that you lack normalisation (since there's no division byCR again there) which is why I added it.
Hope that clears that up. |
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BiggieB
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 19:34 |
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this is a change with a hugher impact: p = ln(1 + 4/11 * e^dr + 7/11 * e^dt) / 110
If I did the math right then hugher differences in CR and TS would give ya less points if playing down and more points if playing up. But I am very tired atm so it might aswell be bullox. (Reason for e^ is that bigger differences would make big changes and small differences make small changes) |
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LordSnotball
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 20:06 |
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| Candlejack wrote: |
if SO many people don't want to be ranked.. why does noone then want to play divx?
just making another divison will not help at all, it will just split up everything even more.. |
Strange tho it may seem, i think there's a far more simple idea behind why there are MORE active ranked teams around than others. simply, the average user doesn't really read up on the user guide when signing up, and doesn't notice what's going on for a good 2-3 months... and i believe that a large percent of the members who don't speak very good english will rarely go off to read things in depth...
so, why is ranked popular? here's the answer... when u create a team, the first option is 'ranked'. when a player looks in gamefinder, the first division shown is ranked, which obviously will also be the most occupied...
if u want to discourage people from starting their teams in ranked, until they have read a few posts on the forum at least, why not just reverse the position of the options? i actually believe this would be more effective...
just an idea... |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 20:51 |
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Uhm. As an outsider by now, that only sort of stops by once in a while ... the simplest solution for this is that all those people that don't care about CR, and there are many according to this thread, simply move their teams to [u].
If all do it ...
a) unranked is revived, and actually easier to find games in as it has a seperate channel. Just stop talking and use the system for your needs.
b) there is a division that is not about ranking, but where people can play for fun competitive matches. [Don't bring the LRB-only teams argument. If you are really in it for one of, competitive, fun matches it is only an arbitrary argument in your head.]
c) no further coding needed
d) old tournament teams can play on if they want to - there is a large base of "dormant" teams in there, already, likely
You know, sort of revolutionary thought, just act and use the possibilites available instead of talking about what could be if just somebody would, endlessly. But maybe I just don't understand online thinking anymore
-Mnemon |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 21:01 |
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| Britnoth wrote: | | brownrob wrote: | | Well I know what would make them play Dx and Ladder complete restart of teams and divisions, if you want to keep a team then move it to a [U] division but that only works for guys who dont mind losing their pixels |
Yeah, what a fantasitic idea!
I'm sure coaches having their teams forcibly moved to U, including the few remaining coaches that play divX (me included) will so LOVE losing all their teams in all divisions for NO FRIGGING REASON, leaving a divX with NO TEAMS TO PLAY AGAINST.
*applauds* |
LOL! Your browser mustn't be showing the smilies Seems like flame for the sake of flame
To be honest, i dont care what BB i play, its still BB, and to be honest im fed up of the whinging (in general) and any feeble attempt (in general) to start flame wars... FUMBBL used to be great, it still is good but the community has become too big and too many flames, in 6 months it will be as bad as TBB was for flame and war.
Im only playing folk now who i have played before as im sick of disconnects, whingers and the flamers! I hardly ever play now because of this. There are a lot of good guys who i will happy to chat with here, but then there are th folk who take the whole thing too seriously...
Where is Dread, squig, mika and paul for a bit of light hearted banter when you want it  |
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BunnyPuncher
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 29, 2005 - 22:52 |
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Before any move to make "U" the default division get rid of those pact teams and those 30 odd different types lame stunty teams.
I doubt the "opt out" of CR is going to happen, that was the purpose for changing O to R in the first place. Such a change would be a definite going backwards.
Div-x definitly needs a new "thing", but we are pretty much at the mercy of the BBRC there, otherwise it will continue to lay idle. Imho this is a good thing, as if there is nothing to test, its nothing but a spot for 5 extra teams, which are probably better off in U anyway.
While I preferred the old [O] to the new [R] I dont think ranked is broken in any way. |
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