FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Nov 25, 2007

Posted: Jun 01, 2010 - 21:53

the bottom paragraph is what really counts from my post, that's our benchmark (assuming the catcher has the ball already, no QS, no Blizzard, no Blitz, no TAR)

@Maysrill, I think you can do it such that you're double pushing, and hence are clear from the LOS when your catcher starts running.

_________________

Purplegoo

Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Posted: Jun 01, 2010 - 21:57

MadTias wrote:

CircularLogic wrote:

I feel the MadTias2 is especially easy to crack.

Yea, I worked through my setups at work today. Surprised

They are surprisingly easy to crack! Just shows that I haven't given this pretty important topic enough attention in my 2000 games.

Actually, having spent some time on this today, I couldn't find a set-up that was better than "3 on the LOS, rest in the back". Nothing I came up with forced harder dodges than into 2TZ-1TZ-0TZ, like that one does. My current analysis is that a rookie team might as well set up "3 on the LOS, rest in the back". Give me a SF and a couple of Guard and Tackle though...

I'm sure a couple of the suggestions already here are better than that - I'm convinced collectively we can produce better. Wink

DukeTyrion

Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Posted: Jun 01, 2010 - 22:02

DukeTyrion wrote:

I sometimes use;

_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ X | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | X _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

Works quite well for me with a couple of guards in among them.

James, any chance of a numerical analysis of this one please? Very Happy

(After you finish your cup of team that is) Wink

DukeTyrion

Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Posted: Jun 01, 2010 - 22:06

Also, after looking at one of the other setups I wonder if it's worth tweaking mine to be;

_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

James_Probert

Joined: Nov 25, 2007

Posted: Jun 01, 2010 - 22:09

DukeTyrion wrote:

I sometimes use;

_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ X | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | X _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ X _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

Works quite well for me with a couple of guards in among them.

James, any chance of a numerical analysis of this one please? Very Happy

(After you finish your cup of team that is) Wink

I need a method to take it out before i can start analysing it, I was just using goo's proposed method against the basic defence, and don't forget, this is assuming rookie teams on both sides, so no guard anywhere! I could see it being effective as orcs with a few BOBs on the line, to make a hard first hit though...

but right now we are assuming St3 linemen on the line.

_________________

f_alk

Joined: Sep 30, 2005

Posted: Jun 01, 2010 - 23:04

DukeTyrion wrote:

Also, after looking at one of the other setups I wonder if it's worth tweaking mine to be;

_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

I think this is as good as it gets for the "standard case" - but I have no numbers to back it.

CircularLogic

Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Posted: Jun 01, 2010 - 23:12

DukeTyrion wrote:

Also, after looking at one of the other setups I wonder if it's worth tweaking mine to be
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X X X _ _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

Setup:
I denominate people that move with A, B etc., the blocking players with numbers, * is the guy that runs for the score and P is the guy getting pushed around.

Code:

_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B X 1 * 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ P X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

OK, to crack that I need:
1) Block with push or POW.

Code:

_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B X _ * 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ P 1 X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

2) After A moves, the blitz from #2 needs to be a push.

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ B X P * 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

3) #3 blocks for a push:

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ B X 3 P 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X * _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

4) B Moves:

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 P 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X * B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

5) #4 blocks. A POW is sufficient, though a Push is what we want:

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X P B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

6) #5 block with push or POW:

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X P | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

Then it's 3+ dodge, 2+ dodge and a GFI.

Cyrus-Havoc

Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Posted: Jun 02, 2010 - 14:38

This was recommended to me when I first started on Fumbbl to make the pushes hard. But I am not good at working out how hard it is to defeat. I have used it fairly successfully on tabletop when I can remember to do it right!

Code:

----|x-x-x-x|----
--xx|-------|xx--
----|-x-x-x-|----

I also wonder if the key is to make the push more difficult, or to try and force more or harder dodge rolls?

_________________
Not Undead but perhaps the oldest living coach!

p4m

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Jun 02, 2010 - 15:07

CircularLogic wrote:

Setup:
I denominate people that move with A, B etc., the blocking players with numbers, * is the guy that runs for the score and P is the guy getting pushed around.

Code:

_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B X 1 * 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ P X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

OK, to crack that I need:
1) Block with push or POW.

Code:

_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B X _ * 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ P 1 X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

2) After A moves, the blitz from #2 needs to be a push.

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ 3 _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ B X P * 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

3) #3 blocks for a push:

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ B X 3 P 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X * _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

4) B Moves:

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ 4 _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 P 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X * B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

5) #4 blocks. A POW is sufficient, though a Push is what we want:

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X P B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

6) #5 block with push or POW:

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ X 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X P | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

Then it's 3+ dodge, 2+ dodge and a GFI.

you can even improve that pattern, so you dont have to make 3 1d blocks but just once.

Code:

_ _ _ _ | 2 _ 3 _ 4 Y _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | A B C 1 * 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ P X X _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ _ X X | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

so you can do assists in step 5) and 6)

5)

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ Y _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ C 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X P B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

5a) move Y

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ C 3 4 5 Y | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X P B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ _ | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

6) #5 block with push or POW:

Code:

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ C 3 4 5 _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | A _ 2 1 X _ B | _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | X X _ _ X X P | X _ _ _
_ _ _ X | _ _ X _ X _ * | X _ _ _
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

and it's 2+2+2+

JockMcRowdy

Joined: Jul 07, 2004

Posted: Jun 02, 2010 - 16:41

excellent thread guys, something intriguing to read through for the first time in....long.

i tend to use (below) as a standard, but may rethink it now, lets see how it goes

_ _ _ _ | _ X _ X _ X _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _MORE LINE....

X _ X _ | X _ X _ X _ X | _ X _ X

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _
--------------------------------------------
_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

I used to find this quite effective, but could prove costly on players, and was possibly rubbish

_ _ _ _ | _ X _ X _ X _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ X | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ X | _ X _ X _ X _ | X _ _ _

_________________
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CircularLogic

Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Posted: Jun 02, 2010 - 16:54

p4m:
It is a 3+ dodge, as the first dodge is into 1 TZ. As it was late, I didn't check for 2d blocks or 1d blocks besides the 2 initial ones, but as the play doesn't utilize the full 10 players, you can place assists where you think you need them.

CircularLogic

Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Posted: Jun 02, 2010 - 16:56

JockMcRowdy wrote:

I used to find this quite effective, but could prove costly on players, and was possibly rubbish

_ _ _ _ | _ X _ X _ X _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | X _ _ X _ _ X | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _

_ _ _ X | _ X _ X _ X _ | X _ _ _

As you can easily block down the center guy and then push on of the sides this setup probably fails pretty hard.

Chingis

Joined: Jul 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 02, 2010 - 17:39

p4m wrote:

you can even improve that pattern, so you dont have to make 3 1d blocks but just once.

If my maths is right, that play has a 17.7% chance of success with a re-roll (assuming the ball is already in the hands of the appropriate, AG4 player). Or down at 5%ish without a re-roll.

p4m

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Jun 02, 2010 - 17:41

CircularLogic wrote:

p4m:
It is a 3+ dodge, as the first dodge is into 1 TZ. As it was late, I didn't check for 2d blocks or 1d blocks besides the 2 initial ones, but as the play doesn't utilize the full 10 players, you can place assists where you think you need them.

not that bad to have 2d blocks if you gonna check for the possibilty, is it?! Smile

and cant see that 3+ dodge, as there is no TZ...
Edit: oh there... the bar tricked my eyes... ok 3+ than Smile

but i agree the Ssetup of JockMcRowdy isnt the best... the sidelines are completly open...

Timlagor

Joined: Feb 13, 2009

Posted: Jun 02, 2010 - 21:52

it seems clear to me that the standard case is only a starting point for this. If it's to be useful we must have considerations of teams with skills and Stat-boosts.

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Time for a new .sig