Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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 Posted:
Mar 01, 2010 - 11:14 |
 
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I made certain propososals in this thread that would involve the merging of the Blackbox and Ranked division. Another proposal that has been floating is that Ranked might gain it's own OPTIONAL match scheduler.
These proposals have had some support, but also attracted some criticisms. I know some people are tired of this discussion, but as one last try, I came up with a new idea, which I wanted to share that would
A. KEEP Ranked and Black Box as separate divisions.
B. NOT involve a new scheduler for ranked that competes with the Black box one.
This NEW idea, is very, um, different from my old idea. Here goes.
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Grod's new idea
Keep the Ranked and Black Box division separate as they are now. All Ranked teams may OPTIONALLY join the Black Box scheduler when they like (and continue to select their opponents when they like too). Add a box for Black Box teams next to the one where they select their teams, so that when joining the scheduler, they may choose NOT to be given match ups against Ranked teams. That's it.
Some possible things I might do to implement this idea are: give extra weighting for Blackbox vs Blackbox matchups regardless of coach opponent preference. Give priority for matchups in which no Black Box team misses out on a match. Keep BWR and CR without change. I leave open what do to in the case of a Ranked vs Black Box team match up. Perhaps someone can suggest what (if anything) to do here. Finally I am also a fan of allowing Box teams to enter Ranked tournaments, but this is not part of my idea here.
What do you think? Feel free to give criticism, or just say "yes" or "no" if you do or don't like it. Please keep in mind that I put a fair bit of effort into these ideas, so I appreciate when some effort is put into the criticisms.
<B> Some Pros </B>
- Matchups based on TS are theoretically "fair" whether teams are Ranked or Black Box teams. If a Ranked team somehow "pimps" itself up, then it will simply have a bigger TS.
- Greater variety of teams using the Scheduler (a Black Box coach might find themselves facing Halflings if they opt to allow vs Ranked).
- More teams using the scheduler leads to better match ups.
- People who don't like change can continue to go on as before with nothing different: Black Box coaches can continue to only play other Black Box coaches. Ranked coaches can continue to choose every match they play.
- Changes to the site are minimal compared to other ideas (it seems at least).
- The long term viability of Black Box is assured, as the division no longer needs a minimum number of active coaches to be viable.
- Each division keeps it's own unique structure and philosophy and tournaments.
- Black Box teams never need to miss out on a schedule again
- Match ups are possible (and better) at strange times and on certain public holidays etc.
- Easier to find a game for both Ranked and Black Box coaches!
- Appears to be a win-win scenario for both Ranked and Box coaches.
PS my apologies to any affected coaches if parts (or all) of this idea are not original at all, and in fact originated with you. Please respond below and I can give you all due credit. Koadah for example had some input into this idea. |
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Oscar Wilde
Last edited by Grod on %b %01, %2010 - %11:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 01, 2010 - 11:27 |
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| Grod wrote: |
<B> Some Pros </B>
- Matchups based on TS are theoretically "fair" whether teams are Ranked or Black Box teams. If a Ranked team somehow "pimps" itself up, then it will simply have a bigger TS. teams in ranked can develop in a far more efficient manner than those in the box, as they can get recovery games that help to put spp's on the ones that need them, as opposed to having to play to a team's strength, so i don't 100% agree with this
- Greater variety of teams using the Scheduler (a Black Box coach might find themselves facing Halflings if they opt to allow vs Ranked). this seems to assume that box coaches don't already play halflings, in fact there are more active halfling teams with 5 or more games than gobbos
- More teams using the scheduler leads to better match ups. This is true to an extent. More for those that mix, less for those that don't
- People who don't like change can continue to go on as before with nothing different: Black Box coaches can continue to only play other Black Box coaches. Ranked coaches can continue to choose every match they play. Not strictly true either. Both pur ranked players AND pure box players would have a smaller range of teams to play against, since the mixed would suck up teams from both areas
- Changes to the site are minimal compared to other ideas (it seems at least). Yep very true
- The long term viability of Black Box is assured, as the division no longer needs a minimum number of active coaches to be viable. the long term future of the box would be very much in doubt, as fewer coaches would use the box, if even one coach goes from the box to the ranked selection option that is one less coach in the box
- Each division keeps it's own unique structure and philosophy and tournaments. IMHO both would lose some of their identity
- Black Box teams never need to miss out on a schedule again if they want to play ranked opponents that is
- Match ups are possible (and better) at strange times and on certain public holidays etc. I can't see how this would change, 10 coaches is still 10 coaches no matter how they arrange their teams. If ranked still want to play ranked and box still want to play box, and then we add a mixture to the option as well it could even make it harder to get a game
- Easier to find a game for both Ranked and Black Box coaches! If they want to play a mixture, otherwise it could be harder to find a game
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 01, 2010 - 11:30 |
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Just a quick response about match ups. It only takes a few Box coaches to be willing to play Ranked coaches for better match ups for all BOX coaches regardless of their preference. Just because a Box coaches opts to play a Box opponent does not prevent one who did not from matching up to them. |
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Oscar Wilde |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 01, 2010 - 11:32 |
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For arguements sake let's put this idea as a 50% agreement acroos both divisions (which is about the result of the poll that was put up)
Now if there are 20 coaches looking for a game, 10 in ranked and 10 in the box. 5 from each of the ranked and the box opt for the mixed scheduler, the others only play within their own divisions. This means that instead of the ranked coaches having 9 other coaches to look for a good game with, they now only have 4, that is less than half what they started with. The same goes for the players that only want to play other box teams, instead of a nice 10 coaches activated, and everyone getting a game, only 4 coaches will get a game and the qulity will be impaired.
How can anyone argue that this helps either division? |
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peikko
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 01, 2010 - 11:35 |
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This thread should be renamed as "Bad Idea!" |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Mar 01, 2010 - 11:36 |
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The result for Box would be: EVERY Box coach gets a game. Box coaches that are prepared to accept the mix don't necessarily get one (in fact I would have the scheduler prioritise against it). A Box coach who doesn't select to play vs Box can end up playing vs EITHER ranked OR Box.
You also wrote that the remaining Ranked coaches have less people to pick their games from. That is a GOOD thing, as it means lots of Ranked coaches already HAVE a game (which is the whole point of looking)!
What you end up with in your scenario is:
20 coaches. 15 activate for the scheduler. 14 teams are matched, with 1 ranked team missing out (because of the odd number). You then have 6 Ranked coaches left over choosing matches between themselves.
I really think the point has been missed. It only takes a few "mixed" games to make a better match up for everyone. There is only ONE scheduler. |
_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde
Last edited by Grod on %b %01, %2010 - %11:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 01, 2010 - 11:56 |
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Blackbox is a pure division, in theory and in practice. Any idea which tries to dilute that is not a good one in my opinion.
Also, you already have a good percentage of bashers in Blackbox, if you allowed Ranked teams to join the scheduler there too, I suspect many of the Ranked teams joining would also be bashers.
For every coach you would bring in to Blackbox with this idea, I suspect you would also lose one. |
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hairyscairyman
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
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Mar 01, 2010 - 12:17 |
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| Grod wrote: | | The result for Box would be: EVERY Box coach gets a game. Box coaches that are prepared to accept the mix don't necessarily get one (in fact I would have the scheduler prioritise against it). |
Coding such a scheduler is a far more complicated proposition than the anybody can play anybody scheduler that the current box uses. Would you care to have a go at it? |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Mar 01, 2010 - 12:21 |
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I dont like the idea, keep them seperate. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 01, 2010 - 12:22 |
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| hairyscairyman wrote: | | Grod wrote: | | The result for Box would be: EVERY Box coach gets a game. Box coaches that are prepared to accept the mix don't necessarily get one (in fact I would have the scheduler prioritise against it). |
Coding such a scheduler is a far more complicated proposition than the anybody can play anybody scheduler that the current box uses. Would you care to have a go at it? |
I have some experience in such matters, and from my experience, it should not be that much harder to code. Christer is the one who would do it, so it is ultimately up to him if he thinks it is too hard. I think more important right now is to see if it is a good idea, and whether or not there is support for it. Implementation is really a down stream concern.
[and judging be the evidence so far, there appears to be little support] |
_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
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Naru1981
Joined: Jan 01, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 01, 2010 - 12:27 |
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if ranked coaches want to play in the box then im all for that. All they do is create a box team!!!
As was mentioned above, a ranked team can go get a recovery game in ranked where as in box you never know what you will be paired with next. |
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MrMojo
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
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Mar 01, 2010 - 12:36 |
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Why fix something that isn't broken |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Mar 01, 2010 - 12:39 |
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| MrMojo wrote: | | Why fix something that isn't broken |
QFT
Only here MrMojo. Some coaches seem to want to change things for changes sake, even if they are working and the majority like the way things are.
Personally? Other than the TS (which I just don't get) the box + ranked seem fine as they are. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Mar 01, 2010 - 12:45 |
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If the scheduler first matches up the box coaches and then matches the ranked coaches with the 'willing leftovers', then you still have less coaches for the non-scheduler crowd.
No matter how you put it, Grod - your idea splits up the playerbase further, as you have three groups, the ranked, the box and the mixed coaches.
Oh - and I know for sure, that I wouldn`t be up for mixed matchups with my box teams, because you could be sure that a lot of them (if not most) pack more punch per TS than their box counterparts. Apart from not playing understrenght, they are much less likely to carry injuries on important players and much more likely to have cash for stars (on TS cheap races like orcs) or wizards (on elves). |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 01, 2010 - 12:48 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | If the scheduler first matches up the box coaches and then matches the ranked coaches with the 'willing leftovers', then you still have less coaches for the non-scheduler crowd. |
Yeah, but there are less players left over, because everyone else is playing Blood Bowl. One effect of having more people playing games is that there are less people looking for games. That is true.
Anyway, I think Christer's blog answers everything nicely (hint hint go and read it and learn about upcoming League changes). |
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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
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