SolomonKane
Joined: Jul 21, 2005
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 Posted:
Aug 22, 2005 - 06:33 |
 
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Ok, I've been chewing on this idea all day and it wouldn't go away, so I'm going to post it up here and see what people think of it. These rosters are very raw, so I'll take any and all tips for tweaking them.
If anyone's seen the old movie 'Gremlins,' then you know where I got the ideas for these teams. If you haven't seen the movie, then hopefully you at least know what gremlins are - supposedly little creatures who delight in making mischief for humans, but are too clever to ever be spotted.
Well, in the Gremlins movie, the gremlins begin as mogwais - fluffy little guys who look much like small teddy bears but with large eyes and great intelligence, and an especial knack for mechanical gadgets and gizmos - hence the main mogwai of the movie being named Gizmo.
Unfortunately, for all their cute appearance, the mogwais are not necessarily nice guys. An accident in the movie creates several more mogwais besides Gizmo, most of which are NOT cute-minded fellows. They eventually manage to turn themselves into truly evil-looking gremlins (represented as scaly, wiry-limbed, ugly little brats with large, sharp teeth and a destructive bent) which, the way I got it from the movie, were more physically active and capable than mogwais.
MOGWAIS
Therefore, a mogwai team is a bunch of physical nobodies who manage to play the game by using their brains - any mogwai with a desire to use physical force always becomes a gremlin because the mogwais are too 'goody two-shoes' for their taste. They have very little in the way of physical abilities, being halflings with -MA and -ST, but I gave them G/A skill access to represent their intelligence (yes, I know this is nearly anathema to stunty leeg. Let me know if it seems overboard). They also have the services of treemen, because they are more in tune to nature than gremlins. So, this roster plays out like this:
0-16 Mogwai 4 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff (G,A) - 40k
0-4 Pogwai 4 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Sure Feet, Pogo Stick (A) - 80k
0-2 Shogwai 3 1 3 7 Stunty, Blunderbuss (G) - 60k
0-2 Treemen (Standard trees)
RR: 50k
Wizard: No (technology, not magic)
The Shogwai are a bit slower because that blunderbuss is only barely able to be used, through some creative engineering on their part. Instead of truly carrying the blunderbuss, it's a stunty cannon on wheels, which the mogwai can push around while on foot - hence why the mogwai also loses most mogwai abilities (no Dodge or Right Stuff).
Basically, this team is meant to be an agility team, passing for TDs more than anything. I would expect that as it's laid out right now, there might be too much mobility here.
GREMLINS
Well, these little twerps are quite nastier than the mogwai, being a bit larger and more active. Also, their transformation from mogwai to gremlin sometimes leaves them with odd physical conditions, though these tend to be rare, and almost never is a duplicate mutation seen on the same team. They also truly love to use gadgets and weapons, which they need to make up for their lack of strength. Sheer spite makes them enjoy injurious weapons rather than ball-handling weapons. When they first started playing Blood Bowl, Gremlins were often joined by trolls and ogres, to supplement their small size. Unfortunately, the gremlins just couldn't resist pulling pranks on the big guys on their teams, and finally the big guys just refused to play for gremlins anymore, on account of their fragile brains being driven to insanity by the little runts. Now, however, gremlins make up for the lack of big guys by stealing Dwarven Deathrollers - picture 2 or 3 gremlins cackling evilly atop the deathroller as they bounce about its levers trying to make it go where it should.
The idea here is that the gremlins get most of their offense through weapons, and perhaps a mutation or two, or else using standard stunty dodges.
(Does this roster seem bloated?)
0-16 Gremlins 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty (A) - 40k
0-1 Foulin 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Foul Appearance (A) - 60k
0-1 Tailin 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Prehensile Tail (A) - 60k
0-1 Spikelin 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Spikes (A) - 60k (so AV 7 then)
0-1 Tentlin 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Tentacles (A) - 60k
0-2 Gremlin Bombers 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Bomb (A) - 70k
0-2 Gremlin Assassins 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Dagger (A) - 70k
0-1 Gremlin Deathroller 4 7 1 10 Bone Head, Deathroller (MB, SF, Multiblock) - 160k (Bone Head represents the gremlins not always working together successfully to maneuver the deathroller)
RR: 60k
Wizard: No (Technology, not magic)
Notice the lack of Right Stuff on any Gremlin because big guys will no longer play with them - they've forgotten how to work with Big Guys anyway. They only prank them now. |
Last edited by SolomonKane on %b %12, %2005 - %08:%Sep; edited 5 times in total |
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coffindodger
Joined: Jul 01, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2005 - 13:18 |
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How about the deathroller careering about semi-randomly like a goblin fanatic instead of bonehead?
No idea about balance as i don't play Stunty Leeg - just read posts for the fun!
BFN
Paul |
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thechosenone
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2005 - 13:32 |
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i agree with above comment
nice work |
_________________
- Wimp Lo: I'm bleeding, making me the victor
- Master Tang: Pay no attention to Wimp Lo, we purposely trained him wrong... as a joke. |
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thechosenone
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2005 - 13:35 |
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oh yeah:
"START SPREADING THE NEWS..." |
_________________
- Wimp Lo: I'm bleeding, making me the victor
- Master Tang: Pay no attention to Wimp Lo, we purposely trained him wrong... as a joke. |
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Vanguard
Joined: Nov 01, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2005 - 13:37 |
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moogwai all mit general access ?
would be broken i think |
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Gran
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2005 - 13:39 |
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Wouldn't RSC feel more Gremlin than a dagger? |
_________________
The trouble is that things *never* get better, they just stay the same, only more so.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Eric)
Today Is A Good Day For Someone Else To Die!
-- (Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay) |
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SolomonKane
Joined: Jul 21, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2005 - 14:48 |
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Yes, RSC would feel more Gremlin, but against other stunties would probably be too powerful, I was thinking? I had also thought about Claws as a standard mutation player, but then decided against that for the same reason. Hence, the weapons seemed to be the way to bend the fluff. |
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R_Spiskit
Joined: Nov 24, 2003
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Aug 22, 2005 - 15:01 |
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Mogwais: Even with G access, 50K for a halfling with -1MA and -1ST seems madness, as a halfling is 30K.
I know G access is cool, and I realise 3 trees is a benefit, but being a halfling coach who expects 1-2 dead a game, this team with their lower strength and MA, would never survive.
30K would be OK, trading ma & st for G access. Maybe put at 40K to compensate for the extra tree. |
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Gran
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2005 - 15:04 |
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Sure, but when you consider all the MB BG's in all the other teams that might not be such a problem, stuntys die anyway. Or give everyone Claws and drop the Deathroller? |
_________________
The trouble is that things *never* get better, they just stay the same, only more so.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Eric)
Today Is A Good Day For Someone Else To Die!
-- (Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay) |
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SubSonic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2005 - 15:42 |
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ST 1 stunty with gen access sounds intresting imo |
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SolomonKane
Joined: Jul 21, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 16:55 |
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Would anyone be willing to generate an icon for me? I need a Gremlin Deathroller. Ideally, I'd like to be able to see the heads of 2 or 3 Gremlins on it, instead of the one dwarf you usually see... |
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SolomonKane
Joined: Jul 21, 2005
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Aug 29, 2005 - 02:13 |
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After a few playtests at home, I've realized that the Mogwai team, no matter how many positionals it has, is going to burn through a LOT of rerolls (and the more pogos it has, the more it will burn). Would reducing the cost of RRs to 40k be too extreme? My other option would be to increase the cost of the pogos by about 30k and add Sure Feet, rather than cutting the RR cost. Should I:
1) Reduce RR cost, or
2) Give Pogo Mogwai Sure Feet and make them, say, 80 or 90k? |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Aug 29, 2005 - 19:12 |
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First of all, you should be aware that team concepts which come straight from a non-Warhammer universe often receive very mixed opinions regarding the fluff. Read this post.* With the information from that post in mind, you might want to alter the fluff somewhat.
| Quote: |
1) Reduce RR cost, or
2) Give Pogo Mogwai Sure Feet and make them, say, 80 or 90k?
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I think I'd reduce the rerolls to 50k and see how far that gets you, AND add Sure Feet to the Pogwais. I'd be tempted to add a point of AV to the Shogwais as well. It would be helpful if you could post what you think would be a typical starting roster, including # of rerolls and FF, etc. I assume they can have an apoth?
As far as the Gremlins are concerned, are there none that remember how to Pogo or Blunderbuss from their time as Mogwais? It seems like there would be some, although they wouldn't be as good at it. (e.g., lower MV or AG). Just a thought.
Regards,
~hunter
* Much of the rest of that particular thread is full of grandstanding and other issues, so readers beware. What is of most importance as far as this conversation is concerned is the particular linked post from Peikko, the commissioner of the Stunty Leeg. |
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SolomonKane
Joined: Jul 21, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2005 - 01:47 |
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That gives me food for thought (by the way, thank you for the Pogwai and Shogwai names. I could never figure out how to shorten them properly). What I got out of that post you linked was, according to peikko, I shouldn't be so concerned about the fluff as making the roster unique. That was my intention all along, as many stunty teams don't use a large amount of secret weapons, other than the Goblin cheaters. Unfortunately, Evolve's later post undermines what peikko said and - no offense intended to Evolve as I understand you are highly respected in the community and have done a lot for it - but sounds a bit selfish in its tone. I understand not wanting to let previous work go to waste, but my experience with online games is that often, the ideas behind gaming groups/leagues tend to evolve over time, either through the desire of players to experience something different from their old favorite game, or simply because the leadership changes and takes a different tack. Sometimes this has destroyed a game, more often though it simply leads to a different game - whether it is better or not is usually in the eye of the beholder.
That being said...let me address your other points.
I agree about the Shogwai getting +AV. They're so slow...it's really pointed when you play them.
Apothecary: Yes.
RR cost reduction: I agree there also.
Pogwais with Sure Feet would be much more interesting, and reliable...hopefully not TOO reliable, however. I need to chew on that one.
I suppose Gremlins could use Blunderbusses and Pogo Sticks, but the idea there was to give them nasty, not ballhandling, weapons to show their spiteful nature. I wanted the Gremlins to have to struggle a bit with the ball handling because of the extra speed they gained over the Mogwais. This, to my mind, was a balance issue.
Also, I have to admit the physical mutation players were a last-minute inspiration that I felt was easy to toss in there and gave the team another facet to their uniqueness, but it DID make for some roster bloat. I'm trying to decide if I need to leave off mutations, or reduce the different available mutations, or just leave the roster as it currently is. Things just seemed blase with only daggers, bombs, the deathroller, and standard Gremlins...but perhaps I should have left them at that.
Here's the rosters which I've set up for playtesting, I haven't really gotten to the one without any special weapons yet, though:
This roster is about as balanced as it can get, with 12 players and 4 RRs besides:
2 Treemen 220k
1 Shogwai 60k
2 Pogwai 120k
7 Mogwai 280k
4 RRs 240k
8 FF 80k
This roster maxes out on the shrimps, hoping to use the pogos and Stunty to advantage before the Blunderbuss gets overrun (so far, no success):
2 Shogwai 120k
2 Pogwai 120k
12 Mogwai 480k
Apothecary 50k
3 RRs 180k
9 FF 90k
Finally, this roster attempts to use Throw Teammate rather than weapons (haven't tested it, but I doubt it'll work either):
3 Treemen 330k
10 Mogwai 400k
3 RRs 180k
9 FF 90k |
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SolomonKane
Joined: Jul 21, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 12, 2005 - 08:49 |
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Well, my playtesting of these rosters at home has been somewhat limited, but I did make enough changes to the inital rosters that I feel I should repost my final listing one more time:
MOGWAIS
0-2 Treemen 2 6 1 10 Standard Tree Skills 110k (S)
0-16 Mogwai 4 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff 40k (G,A)
0-2 Shogwai 3 1 3 7 Stunty, Blunderbuss 60k (G)
0-4 Pogwai 4 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Sure Feet, Pogo Stick (A) 80k
RRs: 50k
Wizard: Runesmith
Reduced number of treemen to 2 maximum. Changed the Shogwai skill access to G only instead of A only to represent the loss of mobility due to the Mogwai blunderbuss. Frankly, in playtesting it doesn't matter what skillset they have, they're still too slow to do much most of the time. Decided that Sure Feet as a standard Pogwai skill is fine, as they still fail enough rolls to make it difficult to position the receivers safely downfield. When it DOES work, however, the results can be spectacular...
GREMLINS
0-1 Deathroller 4 7 1 10 Bone Head, Deathroller (Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Multiblock) 160k
0-16 Gremlin 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty 40k (A)
0-2 Assassins 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Poisoned Dagger 60k (A)
0-2 Bombers 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Bomb 60k (A)
0-1 Slicer 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Chainsaw 60k (A)
0-1 Tailin 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Prehensile Tail 60k (A)
0-1 Hornlin 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Horns 60k (A)
0-1 Foulin 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Foul Apperance 60k (A)
RRs: 50k
Wizard: Master Prankster (Master Chef)
I ended up finally removing the Spikelin for being rather useless and the Tentlin for being perhaps a bit much against other stunties, and also somewhat a duplication of the Tailin's ability to affect dodging. Reduced RR cost, as these teams are likely to be spending plenty of money on replacements alone. Believe it. |
Last edited by SolomonKane on %b %17, %2005 - %09:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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