misterlonestar
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Joined: Oct 02, 2015
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 04:21 |
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thanks ram, I'll join and check it out.
also, the beauty of scalable vector graphics. though they may still be too thin
![Image Image](https://fumbbl.com/i/584153) |
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The_Murker
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Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 06:43 |
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pretty cool looking. |
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Christer
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Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Ok, so I think it's time for me to weigh in on this subject. Before that, though, I'll start by saying that I am hoping to have time this weekend to do some tech work and create a proof of concept that does the whole chain from SVG icons to rendering in Java.
Once this has been done, I will be writing a blog with more detail.
Now, the reason this project exists in the first place is for me to be able to modify the FFB client to be scaled to suit larger screens. Without going into detail (see my yet to be written blog for this), this is something I feel is strictly necessary.
That premise is really important here, and the rest of this post assumes that you agree with that goal.
In order to make the client scalable and solve the underlying problems with the current icons, we need them to be redrawn. I know there are tools that scale pixel art, but it simply isn't good enough to be useful. I love the idea of doing it, and did spent a month of free time to implement a promising looking algorithm quite some time ago. But in the end, the result isn't good enough. I may cover this in my blog as well (it might be a series of blogs actually given the scope of this).
At this point, we're looking at a complete redraw. I am sure this will be a topic that people have strong opinions on, but in the end I have to make a call. Any decision I make will make people unhappy, which is why I have spent a LOT of time thinking about this and have justification for why I made the choice I made.
First off, some people want "realism". I will interpret that as two properties of the icons: Proportions and detail. Unfortunately, the tiny size of the squares in the current client (more on that later) make realistic proportions non-practical. The head is simply too important in terms of recognisability of the position to be drawn in the correct size (30 pixels divided by 7.5 is 4 pixels).
Obviously, that's too small, and that's also the case if we were to increase to 50 pixel squares you're still looking at 6-7 pixels for a realistic proportion head.
The same goes for realistic detail. Things like chainmail, earrings, shoelaces, etc simply go below pixel size.
Inevitably the size constraint we have excludes realism regardless of what we do. Thus we're looking at more or less chibi-proportion (aka. bobblehead) icons with a limited palette (again, more on this in my future blogs).
Now, before you bring out pitchforks, you have to realize that our current icons are very chibi-like for exactly the same reason. In order to get your blood pressure down, let me show you a very quick render of what I have right now. The icons in the image below are SVG files exported to PNG through a SVG editor application, and not rendered directly in a Java application (which is something I want to achieve this weekend). Thus, the following is not a pixel perfect representation of what it will look like. Also note that the players are not final by any means at this stage.
There are three sizes of icons (the three rows): 30, 35 and 45 pixels.
The 30 pixel version is maybe slightly too small, even though it's nominally the current square size. The 35 pixel size looks about right in terms of size. The 45 pixel size could do with some adjustment (possibly a different interpolation mode) to make the outlines more prominent. They are also a bit too large for the 30 pixel squares.
You'll also note that the pose is sort of an in-between of the ones in the client right now. This is done on purpose to further utilize the square nature of the game. Having the three-quarter perspective allows for more detail on the body and hides the large helmet side in favour of getting more space on the face of the character. At the same time, there's directionality to the icon where players can be rendered facing left or right as appropriate.
These icons are obviously(?) humans, and there's a lot of work remaining to be done, and there are plenty of opportunities to do cool things (some of which I hope to be able to do in the proof of concept I want to build this weekend).
Stay tuned for more updates ![Smile](./modules/PNphpBB2/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) |
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Dominik
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Joined: Oct 29, 2004
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 18:25 |
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I do find the current icons more appealing than all the propositions explained in this thread. ![Sad](./modules/PNphpBB2/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif) |
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Christer
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Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Dominik wrote: | I do find the current icons more appealing than all the propositions explained in this thread. ![Sad](./modules/PNphpBB2/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif) |
Thank you for your constructive feedback. |
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Dominik
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Joined: Oct 29, 2004
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 18:37 |
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Christer wrote: | Dominik wrote: | I do find the current icons more appealing than all the propositions explained in this thread. ![Sad](./modules/PNphpBB2/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif) |
Thank you for your constructive feedback. |
Playing over 2.000 games, been on the site active for over 10 years and now becoming confronted with the fact that the new icons will be "unpleasant" is something you understand? I stated my opinion on each of the graphics propositions and nothing more. That is all the feedback you can get from an ordinary user.
After all the thread started with the words
Quote: | So for those that do not have their finger on the pulse |
implying it is an invitation to participate in some way to this process. |
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Garion
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Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 18:40 |
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Dominik wrote: |
Quote: | So for those that do not have their finger on the pulse |
implying it is an invitation to participate in some way to this process. |
this has been something christer has been discussing on the forum and on discord for quite some time. not everyone pays attention though. thats all that meant.
All feedback is welcome though.
The real difficulty is making icons that fit tiny resolution.
Having svg icons allows a lot of customisation opportunities for those with higher res monitors |
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Dominik
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Joined: Oct 29, 2004
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 19:16 |
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Garion wrote: | Having svg icons allows a lot of customisation opportunities for those with higher res monitors |
I understand that point. It is better to serve the technical needs for any user than to stick to a beautiful graphics which exclude a growing part of (potential) users. I for myself have often considered buying a 1080 monitor but did not because I was afraid what it would do with my FUMBBL experience. |
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Gozer_the_Gozerian
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Joined: May 30, 2015
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 19:28 |
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One upside of all this is that it will be extra-satisfying when you kill one of these cutesy hydrocephalic little gits and they leave a bloody smear on the pitch. It'll feel like you're Gargamel stepping on a Smurf. |
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Dominik
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Joined: Oct 29, 2004
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 22:18 |
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Bear in mind that the proposed player graphics do not fit to the pitch graphics as the pitch is sprite graphics, correct? |
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Garion
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Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 22:38 |
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The pitch is made using pixels yes. However that doesn't really make a difference. As we already have 8 bit style pixel art on a more realistic looking pitch. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 22:51 |
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As far as I can tell (and I haven't been part of the Discord discussions) Dominik is the only one moaning. And as pissing off Dominik ought to be a pre-requisite for any plan moving forward anyway, I'd say you're batting 1.000 on this project so far, Christer.
Happy to lend all the moral support I can muster. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 23:27 |
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May I just add that I find the chibi proportions lend a certain 3d top-down 3-point perspective to the model. Maybe 3-point is too complicated to mess with in a formal sense, but the fact that the head is so big is not a bug, it's a feature imo, even if (especially if) 'realistic' proportions matter more to you than recognizability. |
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SzieberthAdam
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Joined: Aug 31, 2008
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  Posted:
Apr 05, 2019 - 23:46 |
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I myself feel the shown vector icons less attractive than the rasters. They are either thin or too kids cartoonish for me. The current icons do fill the field squares in a great way, their parts have nice ratios. I fully understand the concept and benefits of SVG icons and I cheer for all who put work into this enormous task.
One of the greatest benefit of SVG icons is that ideally anyone can assemble icons using premade parts (heads, torsos, etc.). Let me recommend you to just break apart the already great icons and vectorize those parts manually. I spent some hours trying that but I have no graphical talent unfortunately. I would start with the human lineman. An identical-looking but more detailed SVG shoulder-plate would be a great first step.
Still, I a scalable client could start with abstract icons (SVG discs), no need to wait for all icons. |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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  Posted:
Apr 06, 2019 - 00:36 |
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GW in general tend to slid towards Heroic scale. I think the current icons both fit that style and also have a wahammer feel, they capture the universe Blood bowl came out as perfectly as small pixel art could. New Icons should have oversized heads etc, rather than going for a realistic look it just fits.
whether different or not in the end I think those two things are the most important things when settling on any new icons, they have to be believably warhammer. The feel of a fantesy universe is a slightly subjective thing I supose though I would say feel is more important that the scaleablity. Afterall it's that feel that gets under the skin and that's a big part of any hobby like this whether actual modling, gaming or just gaming on the PC. |
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