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Chivite



Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 17:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Since it looks like Foul Appearance also triggers when declared for a blitz, what happens if a FA &Dump off player gets blitzed? (Lets say an underworld thrower)

Which roll is done first? FA on the blitzer or Dump off on the thrower?
And if a rat ogre or vampire was to be the blitzer? What would be the dice sequence?!


Rules transcript:

Player Activations (page 42):
During your team turn, you may activate each Standing and/or Prone player to perform one action available to them, ....

Declaring actions (page 42):
When you activate a player, you must declare the action that player will perform (and, if required, the target of the action). You may not move a player and then declare that player will perform a Pass, Throw team-mate, Hand off, Blitz or Foul action.

Blitz(page 43):
Once per turn, a player on the active team may perform a Blitz action, an action that combines together both a Move action and a Block action.....

Foul Appearance (page 7Cool:
When an opposition player declares a Block action targeting this player (on its own or as part of a Blitz action), or any special action that targets this player, their coach must first roll a D6, even if this player has lost their Tackle Zone. On a roll of 1, the player cannot perform the declared action and the action is wasted.

Dump-Off (page 79):

If this player is nominated as the target of a Block action (or a Special action granted by a skill or trait that can be performed instead of a Block action) and if they are in possession of the ball, they may immediately perform Quick Pass action, interrupting the activation of the opposition player performing the Block action (Or Special action) to do so....

Animal Savagery (page 81)
When this player is activated, even if they are Prone or have lost their Tackle Zone, immediately after declaring the action they will perform but before performing the action, roll a D6, applying a +2 modifier to the dice roll if you declared the player would perform a Block or Blitz action (or a Special action granted by a Skill or Trait that can be performed instead of a Block action):
- On a roll of 1-3, this player lashes out at their team-mates:
- One standing team-mate of your choice that is currently adjacent to this player is immediately Knocked Down by this player. This does not cause a turnover unless the knocked down player was in possession of the ball. After making an armour roll (and possible injury roll) against the knocked down player, this player may continue their activation and complete the declared action of able. Note that, if this player has any applicable skills, the coach of the opposing team may use them when making an Armour roll (and possible injury roll) against the Knocked down player.
.....
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 17:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the order should be:

1) the Foul Appearance player is nominated as target;
2) he can decide to use Dump Off or not because he has been nominated (there is no need for the Blizing/Blocking player to actually Blitz/Block because simply nominating the player triggers Dump Off and declaring a target happens BEFORE actually blitzing/blocking him);
3) roll the Foul Appearance test.
Chivite



Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 17:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Its a battle between the words "first" and "immediately"
And this is not a question about what makes sense, but about RAW
sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Animal Savagery* and Foul Appearance* use is compulsory. Dump-off isn't.

According to me, if a player with Animal Savagery negatrait announces a Blitz action and targets a player with both Foul Appearance and Dump-off skills, you first have to roll for Animal Savagery and Foul Appearance and only then it may be possible to roll for Dump-off if wanted.

And as rules don't clearly say if you have to roll for Animal Savagery or Foul Apperance first, let's say you roll both in the same time. Very Happy

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Last edited by sebco on Jan 17, 2021 - 17:51; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 17:51 Reply with quote Back to top

It's poorly written, to be honest. My interpretation is that.
Only a FAQ could clarify the interaction.

To activate Animal Savagery player you have to declare the Action (because the AS roll modifiers change according to the declared Action) and the target first, you can't activate him first, then declare the Action and a target.
sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 18:02 Reply with quote Back to top

In my opinion, this is a more global problem (even if it doesn't occur so often in a Blood Bowl game to disagree on skill use sequence).

Ideally, general principles section (which is a good add-on in BB 2020 rulebook, in my opinion) could have been completed with a skill use sequence table.

For exemple :

"-first mandatory skills of the active player
-second mandatory skills of the opponent player
-third unmandatory skills of the active player
-fourth unmandatory skills of the opponent player.

And coaches can chose the order between their own skills from the same category (mandatory/unmandatory) if necessary."

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Cyrus-Havoc



Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 18:21 Reply with quote Back to top

To complete Dump off description 'Once the quick Pass action is resolved the active player performs the Block action', so dump off before Foul apperance.

Animal Savagery would come before either as the blitz is not started yet.

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sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Cyrus-Havoc wrote:
To complete Dump off description 'Once the quick Pass action is resolved the active player performs the Block action', so dump off before Foul apperance.

Animal Savagery would come before either as the blitz is not started yet.


I also read that on Facebook but I disagree. We are speaking about BB 2020 Foul Appearance and not BB 2016 (or previous LRB) Foul Appearance.

In BB 2020, you have to roll for Foul Appearance as soon as you declare your action if you target an opponent with Foul Appearance. And if you roll a 1, as I read it, your action is completely wasted. It's really different from before (in case of a blitz with some squares to move before to block, you only lost your block roll in BB 2016 / previous LRBs).

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SavageJ



Joined: Dec 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 18:49 Reply with quote Back to top

My read on FA/Blitz, as written, is that you lose the Block portion of the Blitz action, but not the move. Note that Blitz specifies that both the Move and Block elements are actions.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 19:03 Reply with quote Back to top

SavageJ wrote:
My read on FA/Blitz, as written, is that you lose the Block portion of the Blitz action, but not the move. Note that Blitz specifies that both the Move and Block elements are actions.


Blitz is its own action which combines both. You lose your "action" when you fail FA, which means you lose your blitz - move and block. There's no distinction between either part of the blitz - it's all a blitz action.

When you blitz, you *declare* a blitz, but *nominate* the target of the "block" element - so if you roll a 1 on FA, you lose the declared action - in this case you've only declared a blitz, thus you have to lose the movement as well.

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sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 19:25 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
SavageJ wrote:
My read on FA/Blitz, as written, is that you lose the Block portion of the Blitz action, but not the move. Note that Blitz specifies that both the Move and Block elements are actions.


Blitz is its own action which combines both. You lose your "action" when you fail FA, which means you lose your blitz - move and block. There's no distinction between either part of the blitz - it's all a blitz action.

When you blitz, you *declare* a blitz, but *nominate* the target of the "block" element - so if you roll a 1 on FA, you lose the declared action - in this case you've only declared a blitz, thus you have to lose the movement as well.


Yes, I read it exactly as AD.

Blitz action is described on page 59 and this is stated that "the target must be nominated when the player is activated, before they have moved".

As in Foul Appearence, it is written that on a roll of 1, the player can not perform the declared action and the action is wasted, according to me that refers to the complete Blitz action (which is declared) so move + block and not just the block action part of the blitz action (which is not declared).

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 19:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Anyone have any idea behind the intention of the change of FA? I realize intention doesn't necessarily matter, but I'm still curious. Was FA just considered too weak before? (Probably valid)
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 20:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes BB2020 has a very foul appearance. And will probably be dumped off with animal savagery.
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