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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2021 - 11:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Passing sucks in 2020 edition. Got it. So, why bother with fielding throwers?

Without them, it is now REALLY much more difficult to move the ball and score late in the game.

Yo Elf, try throwing that pass now that you are mostly PA4+. No better than humans AND interfering with a pass has been added AND inaccurate passes can be wildly inaccurate.

Sure, the defender needs to respect the player that has broken into the open but they can now pressure the ball more freely rather than knock down the potential scorer.

If you want to take the ball from side to side it is also tougher as it often involved a hand off and then a short pass. Can be done, but much more risky.

I am starting to think that having throwers may be valuable just to keep the defense honest rather than being forced into a one dimensional running game.


Last edited by Kondor on Nov 05, 2021 - 07:05; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2021 - 12:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Throwers/Runners are still needed on some starting teams lacking rrs to take Leader, but yes generally speaking they are not as good as they should be and Wildly Inaccurate is too bad. It should be avoided (or at least reduced: 1D3 squares) if you have the Pass skill.
Another idea could be boosting Safe Pass skill, so it cancels the Fumble (as now) and turns Wildly Inaccurate into Fumble (as extra effect).
At least there would be a way to avoid Wildly Inaccurate.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2021 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I have been playing Pro Elves with 2 throwers and just one catcher. Apart from injury attrition, the passing game is fine. Generally one of my throwers gets the ball and passing is good.

My Nobility team has a thrower as well but he's more of a hand off merchant... finding it hard to skill him up (sure hands!) but he has passed some quick / short ones.

I may be lucky, but yet to strike a Wildly Innacurate with a thrower yet.
Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2021 - 16:06 Reply with quote Back to top

The thing is that most teams with thrower will need to score in a few turns at some points, and hand offs aren't going to be enough.
Yes passing isn't great, but let's be honest, it never was. Throwers are still nice to have to make a difficult action easier. An occasional touchdown is worth their cost imo, at least with pro elves.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 07:10 Reply with quote Back to top

The thing is that now general players are much worse at throwing than they once were. Throwing with anything except a thrower is truly a desperation play now.

Now, you can almost afford to play defense in a way that completely ignores passing. Teams are completely one dimensional.

I think that is why they screwed up the passing skills. No one else can pass so they did not want to give throwers any perceived advantage.

....Arise dead thread....ARISE!!!
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 09:34 Reply with quote Back to top

But the throwers can pass alright?
If you are able to ignore a skaven passer now you could have ignored them in the past too.
I can't see the one dimensionality in comparison to bb16.

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Medon



Joined: Jan 28, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 10:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Throwers can also vanity pass, so they level up quicker and can earn back their costs with a few nice random skills (easy to skill up = easy to cycle for the perfect random skill). Imagine a random leader for 10k. That's good value for money in elf teams especially with multiple rerolls per turn.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 10:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Sure, Throwers are worth it, but they will never be the star of your team, as intended by the designers. No one will take a bunch of passing skills for 100k TV. No one's building the BB Tom Brady. So it's still a big FAIL.

That being said. Check out T15 of this match: https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=4341036
CrookfangRob



Joined: Jan 22, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 10:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
The thing is that now general players are much worse at throwing than they once were. Throwing with anything except a thrower is truly a desperation play now.

Now, you can almost afford to play defense in a way that completely ignores passing. Teams are completely one dimensional.

I think that is why they screwed up the passing skills. No one else can pass so they did not want to give throwers any perceived advantage.

....Arise dead thread....ARISE!!!


This affects some teams more than others.
I.e. Dark Elves. Defending against DE you can completely ignore their ploy of throwing a lino into your half as a passing option, if you can make it so they can't reach him with a hand off.
Also Woodies actually if you go for a starting build that doesn't have a thrower (and that's most of them).
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 10:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Have throwers ever been the reliable stars on teams? I would think for that to be the case in Blood Bowl, you would need a Steve Young or Michael Vick rather than Tom Brady. Perhaps you could pull off something like that with a Dark Elf Runner or Skaven.

You need a player that has the speed to go the distance running, but passing skills if someone is open. Blood Bowl has always been a run first game. Maybe get a +MV on your already quick thrower.

Has anyone thought of concentrating on the receivers rather then the quarterback? The idea being create a couple of players that are impossible to cover well and the thrower is just a temporary ball holder?

Here, they would probably be pro elves. Think Randy Moss, teamed with Calvin "Megatron" Johnson. Maybe get +St on a catcher that already has Nerves of steal and Block. I know a lot of coaches like to use catchers as ball handlers but since they can no longer pass as well, perhaps they should switch back to really being catchers. Have a nearly rookie thrower just controling the ball before they give it a heave for the big catcher to chase down.

Probably not feasible on a 1350 cap but fun to spitball ideas.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 11:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Surely Steve Young would have to be a Wood Elf Thrower? How else would you build a Jerry Rice to go with him? But then, you wouldn't be scoring with your Wardancers. I don't know man. It can be done but I don't think it's optimal, at least with Seasons it isn't.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 12:01 Reply with quote Back to top

+ST is too expensive (80TV!) and it requires at least 18 SPPs (not to mention at least 20 SPPs to get Blodge). Not realistic with Season Redraft and not TV-efficient either.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 12:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
Surely Steve Young would have to be a Wood Elf Thrower? How else would you build a Jerry Rice to go with him? But then, you wouldn't be scoring with your Wardancers. I don't know man. It can be done but I don't think it's optimal, at least with Seasons it isn't.


There you go. Wood elf thrower Steve Young and Wardancer Jerry Rice. Rice skilled to become a receiver. Catch, Nerves of Steel. Young Blodge and maybe Safe Pass.

Could be fun.
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 13:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I hate dark elves now. I had literally hundreds of games of them, mostly in B and I loved their versatility. That's gone now, and I don't enjoy them anymore. Entirely due to them having the same passing ability as a regular orc ffs.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 13:14 Reply with quote Back to top

The DE Assassin (master of martial arts and throwing weapons in the fluff) has PA 5+ like a Troll or Ogre. Very Happy
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