Panda_
Joined: Jul 14, 2004
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 Posted:
Apr 10, 2007 - 17:51 |
 
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | StarBreeze wrote: | Cant see a long schedule like in the actual UI. The more games, the more possibilities of getting casualties on key players.
Thing that wont happen playing elfballing teams. It seems you cant still see our point. |
I just answered the question you posted. It`s not my fault, if I fail to see an unrelated point to that.
I just look at it this way:
Swaping DE for dwarves will do 2 things. For one, it will decrease the amount of DE applications from coaches that cannot play a huge amount of games. The elves will get hurt in the dark qualifier and need quite a few games of elfbowl to build up again to a competitive level. The other effect will be even more elven team in the major tournament, as the chances of a DE winning 3 games vs bashers is way higher than the chances of dwarves beating 3 fast teams in a row.
So you end up with even more elves in the mainevent, just with the difference, that the DE will be battered, and the other elves will not. |
Let's speak about Skaven. Will you ?
They are not as agile as DE, they are easier to break, and they still play in Dark.
Your argument that DE can't compete in the Dark is not valid. They will have success. If you point at adding them some difficulties, it's right that DE are not liked (at all) by the High Elfs. That's why they would put them in the Dark qualifiers.
The Dwarfs will have a lot of trouble to win in the light too. I don't see them winning in the Dark nor in the Light. But they will be able to weaken a bit some of the winning teams. And they could have to do some match between the qualifier and the Finals. If the tourny stay like that, they are nearly ready to enter the finals.
Speaking of Background, DE are on the dark side of warhammer, and dwarfs are in the plain light. And High elfs remember that their Dark side backstabed them and choosed treacherous ways. While they hate dwarfs too, they still consider the dwarfs as warrior with honor. They see the darkies as disgusting, they can't bear them at all. |
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spelledaren
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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Apr 10, 2007 - 23:37 |
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I assume that the High Elves just consider the Dark Elf teams to be High Elves (what? No, there are no dark elves in our fine tourney!). As for dwarves...they are short, foul and ugly? We don't like them? |
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Walks_in_the_Sun
Joined: Apr 16, 2006
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Apr 11, 2007 - 00:03 |
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High Elves hate Dwarves. They're as bad as evildoers, almost. Laugh while they face all the meanest teams!
High Elves hate Dark Elves. By playing against them in qualifiers they can hope to keep the DE from participating at all!
Also, keeping all the elves together guarantees that 50% of the entrants will be non-elves. Stick Dark Elves in the Dark qualifiers and you risk having an all-elf tournament. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Entry is based on TR. Have more high TR Norse, Lizzie, and Amazon teams and solve you own problem. Nobody can keep them at high enough TR? It's not the tournament for them, then. Let them kick butt at a tourney that allows more entrants. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Apr 11, 2007 - 00:07 |
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Incidentally, in the days when Warhammer games had alignment, Dwarves were neutral and not, as a rule, good.
But please read Mezir's explanation (and that of EvolveToAnarchism, who wrote the fluff) from last year regarding the reasons behind the divisions. |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Apr 11, 2007 - 00:15 |
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Pac,
No one cares what was said last year. This most recent cycle of tournies has 4 straight elf wins (soon to be five).
Just b/c Mezir (not an admin now) or Evo (not around at all) said something a year ago does not make it set in stone (or correct).
The question is, for next year's UI, should Darkies and Dorfs should be changed? I wonder how many people would support it.
__Synn |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Apr 11, 2007 - 00:41 |
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| Synn wrote: | No one cares what was said last year. This most recent cycle of tournies has 4 straight elf wins (soon to be five).
Just b/c Mezir (not an admin now) or Evo (not around at all) said something a year ago does not make it set in stone (or correct). |
Well, it looks like it's the most authoritative answer you're going to get.
| Quote: | | The question is, for next year's UI, should Darkies and Dorfs should be changed? I wonder how many people would support it. |
As I said on the previous page, however you divide up the teams between two categories, there will always be someone whining about some aspect of the division. So if it's not Dwarves and Dark Elves, it'll be something else. Want to hold a poll on everything?
What there may be an argument for is a fundamental change to the UI structure, since - as you correctly point out - elven teams are dominating the Majors at the moment even without the advantage the UI gives them. However, no one's talking about this, because they prefer to quibble over minor details … |
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kemimutt
Joined: Apr 21, 2004
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Apr 11, 2007 - 00:51 |
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Dwarf = D-eadly W-arriors, A-lchoholics (and) R-etarded F-iends
Thats why. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Apr 11, 2007 - 09:29 |
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Elves dominate the Majors because they are the easiest teams to develop BETWEEN tourneys.
TR300 woodies vs TR 300 high elves most of the times concludes with a 4-4 tie or something like that, with few casualties. This leads to many spps, easier recoveries, easier development of key players, and so on.
If Jesperius wants to skill up his chaos, he has to face similar TR orcs or Dorfs, because no human-amazon-norse-vampire-elf-woodelf-highelf-darkelf team in its right mind would ever accept such a match just to "warm up" a killer team for a major. This leads to difficult recoveries, difficult development of key players (it's hard to skill a rookie CW when facing TR 280 Orcs).
AND there's another aspect: since most of Jesperius' Chaos games are against bashers (for reasons stated above), his skill selection is less likely to be perfect against elves. I mean, if Orcs and Dorfs is all you face, Guard MB PilingOn and mutations all have a higher priority than tackle and divingtackle. While elves can safely choose the blodge sidestep route because it's effective against almost every opponent they can face.
What do I want to say with my rant? Just that Elven domination in the Majors is inherently related to team building chances in Ranked, which again is related to the way you can get/choose/pick games in Ranked.
In absence of a schedule in Ranked (which is something I'd support, but that's not the point) the elven domination is likely to stay. Which is not a bad thing in itself, mind you (infact, I don't like this "let's plan the UI structure as to make it difficult for elves to dominate both light and dark" talk... I'd just base the distinction on fluf, because that's the cool part of the whole thing).
/rant over |
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Last edited by JanMattys on %b %11, %2007 - %10:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Blackhungrybeast
Joined: Feb 04, 2006
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Apr 11, 2007 - 09:51 |
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johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 11, 2007 - 10:18 |
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| Snappy_Dresser wrote: | | A simple enough question. Not too many fluff justifications. So the questions becomes: "why do elves get more help in the majors than the Maple Leafs do in Ice Hockey?" |
Yes, I'd very much like to hear how the admins defend this... |
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p4m
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 11, 2007 - 10:44 |
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as JanMattys pointed out: the admins doenst favour anyone...
it seems like this cos of the structure of [R]anked
so if you want to change something you have to change [R] and that is not part of this thread 
and i allready mentioned that changing dorfs and Delfs wont help to break the elvish superiority - it will advance it |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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Apr 11, 2007 - 10:57 |
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Having looked over the thread, I now accept that the major defence is: "because that's the way it is". Fine.
I now propose we do away with the UI completely, in favour of the Chaos Wastes Open, the organization of which to be determined by me. "because that's the way it is"  |
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xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
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Apr 11, 2007 - 11:34 |
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| Panda_ wrote: |
Let's speak about Skaven. Will you ?
They are not as agile as DE, they are easier to break, and they still play in Dark.
Your argument that DE can't compete in the Dark is not valid. They will have success. If you point at adding them some difficulties, it's right that DE are not liked (at all) by the High Elfs. That's why they would put them in the Dark qualifiers.
The Dwarfs will have a lot of trouble to win in the light too. I don't see them winning in the Dark nor in the Light. But they will be able to weaken a bit some of the winning teams. And they could have to do some match between the qualifier and the Finals. If the tourny stay like that, they are nearly ready to enter the finals.
Speaking of Background, DE are on the dark side of warhammer, and dwarfs are in the plain light. And High elfs remember that their Dark side backstabed them and choosed treacherous ways. While they hate dwarfs too, they still consider the dwarfs as warrior with honor. They see the darkies as disgusting, they can't bear them at all. |
Just what I was thinking. I can understand the reasoning of splitting up the sides between the lighter and the heavier teams. And if you speak of fluff than the darkies and the dwarfs should switch. If it is to have 50% bashy and 50% playing teams in the end thats also fine but then I'm wondering what skaven and goblins are doing in the dark qualifier and not the light one? It sure ain't because they are too bashy (or do they look to evil?). |
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Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 11, 2007 - 11:56 |
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If you want a real tournament play a real tournament. Something where there is no such thing as just elfbowl, where there is a set schedule for the season and the elves have to play the other teams they're drawn against. Something where there's no recovery games unless you get lucky with the draw. Australia/nz/(some parts of SE Asia) I'd suggest the SWL. America, check out the NWL. England, the WIL. I'm sure there are others in central Europe/Scandinavia as well as the other regions. And then remember what a real tournament is like. |
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Walks_in_the_Sun
Joined: Apr 16, 2006
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Apr 11, 2007 - 15:08 |
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Geez... why does everyone seem to hate the UI?
So the qualifier system isn't perfectly random. Big deal. I for one appreciate the fact that it's markedly different from the other 3 majors. I support as many differences between them as are feasible, it makes things more interesting. It's funny that nobody's complaining that only the highest TR teams can get entry. (Though if I can get a team into the qualifiers, anyone can - ogres or otherwise).
Anyway, considering it's a tournament run by high elves, and they're already kicking out the 'lowlier' teams, would you expect they hadn't concoted some way to make sure an elf team had the best chance of winning? The whole thing is run by the E.L.F. anyway... |
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