| Poll |
| What do you think of the changes? |
| Fantastic! Just what I've been waiting for! |
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48% |
[ 26 ] |
| Good start... but still needs some work. |
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25% |
[ 14 ] |
| Meh. My goals are different anyways. |
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3% |
[ 2 ] |
| Bad... I see big problems on the horizon! |
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5% |
[ 3 ] |
| Ugh! Back to the ol' drawing board with you! |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Wait! How many points for a PIE??? |
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16% |
[ 9 ] |
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| Total Votes : 54 |
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pizzamogul
Joined: Jun 13, 2005
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 Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 00:41 |
 
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First off, I'd like to thank all the coaches that have made suggestions in the Season XV thread and those that have sent me PM's with their concerns & ideas. I have read and reread all the comments and have spent a few weeks weighing the options. This is a lengthy post so please bear with me.
The league was originally set up with the idea of proving that the elven races could play against the entire field of other races and styles and not only survive, but also thrive. I really feel like the E.L.F. has had a positive effect on the Fumbbl environment: from giving matches to those poor, lonely dwarf coaches to allowing us to actually cheer for E.L.F. elf teams in Majors that got there refusing to elfbowl (or even play other elves entirely). New coaches are constantly joining the league, learning and enjoying the challenge.
One of the great things about the E.L.F. (in my mind) is that it's more than just a league - it's almost a fraternity of those dedicated to playing the game with a certain mentality. It also allows the coaches to set various goals within it: "I just like to say I'm a member. I want to complete the cycle this season - with all wins! I just want to own Category A. Etc, etc..." Although I've been participating for almost a dozen seasons now, I've never been competitive where the overall title is concerned. I, like many others, am at a disadvantage because I prefer to play what I deem to be "even" matchups (and my coaching style rarely generates a 5-0 victory). And, that's never really bothered me much.
But it has begun to bother some other coaches who do want to compete for the overall title... and don't want to have to play what they deem to be "unfair" matchups to do so. They have been pointing out (for a while now) that the scoring system encourages you to play with the TS and CR heavily in your favor - that's the best way to generate a 5-0, casualty-rich victory. In the past, I didn't let that bother me much. Now, however, that playstyle looks to be negatively affecting membership... and THAT does bother me!
So, "better late than never," I have decided to make some changes to the scoring system. I considered adding modifiers for TS and CR that would add or subtract from the difference or a starting point, but I saw ways they could still be broken or exploited. I considered scrapping the whole scoring system and creating something new, but I'm a big fan of tradition and didn't like that route. So, in the end, I decided to make use the existing framework and change some of the "weights" each part contributes to the overall score while adding incentives to play what could be deemed "worthy" matches.
Here are the changes I want to make for each match played:
1. Baseline - +10 points.
Change: In order to receive these points you must play a "baseline" match in which the Team Strength Differential is even (zero) or in your opponent's favor and the opposing coach has a Coach Rating of 155 or higher.
2. Result.
Win - +10 points.
Tie - +5 points.
Change: No change here except that, as you'll see, the Result weighs heavier than the Scoring.
3. Scoring.
Per TD scored - +1 point.
Per TD allowed - -1 point.
Change: Halved the weight.
4. Casualties.
Per casualty inflicted - +1 point.
Still no negative modifier for casualties suffered.
Change: Again, halved the weight.
5. Bonuses.
Shutout victory (opponent does not score) - +3 points.
Force opponent concession - +3 points.
Game played in an Official Fummbl Tournament - +5 points.
Changes: Did away with the 5 TD scoring bonus - if you're scoring 5 times, that should be enough reward in and of itself. Added a "concession" bonus (as per Plorg's repeated suggestion) to allow for a more aggressive/brutal style of play to be competitive (often, an early concession removes the opportunity to generate points through scoring). While lowering the weight of those bonuses, I kept the "tourney" bonus high to further encourage participation as tourneys tend to "tie up" a team for extended periods of time on occasion.
So, what is the expected result? Playing a 5-0, 4 casualty match against competition that does not meet the baseline standard will now net you 10 (win) + 5 (td's) + 3 (shutout) + 4 (casualties) = 22 points. Grinding out an even matchup against a more experienced coach with a 2-1, 2 casualty result will net the coach 10 (baseline) + 10 (win) + 2 (td's for) + -1 (td's against) + 2 (casualties) = 23 points. It now "pays" better to play "baseline" matchups!
And, what is the intended effect? I think what really irks alot of E.L.F. coaches is when they click on the "show stats" of one of their competitors high up in the standings and see all positive numbers... maybe even a majority of double-digit positive averages. Then they click on the high scoring matches and the opposing coach carried a 130-something CR into the game with like 25 matches played and an record to reflect their inexperience. So my hope is that the "effect" will be to see "show stats" all at zero or slightly negative - and opposing coaches with a good measure of games under their belts which is often reflected in their CR.
So, after all this I think we will see a ton of matches right close to 0 TS and against 155.01 CR for the coaches looking to win the league... will this bother you and will those coaches still be able to generate crazy scores playing such matches? I think I could sleep at night with that happening: I'm anxious to see the results and I'm hoping that other strategies my come of this (i.e. - the Ranked Tourney route)! I'm on the fence about adding more bonuses as I want to "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" I might also have to have "special challenges" in future seasons to encourage play against 'flings, Goblins, Ogres and other races with which an even TS match may not be so even... we'll see.
One other thing I'm on the fence about: Category D. As I said before, I'm a big fan of tradition. However, there are more and more E.L.F. coaches that actually resent having to play against other elves to finish the cycle and compete. Also, it doesn't really make logical sense that a league "opposed" to elfbowl forces you to play such matches. So, would it break your heart if the E.L.F. cycle became 8 matches against 4 categories of non-elves? Perhaps then I can shorten up the season a bit and run more per year?
You comments are welcome. |
_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock |
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Nicodemus1
Joined: May 06, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 00:52 |
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looks like a really great update!
I totally agree with you... Looking at the games being played with E.L.F. teams, has had a "Cherrypicker" ring to it for several seasons |
_________________
Why cant we all be friends! Said the dying elf... |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 00:56 |
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I think we should scrap the whole elves are there to win rubbish and score points according to the coach who is the most manly.
Your manliness factor is the number of your own players that have died per game multiplied by the number of fouls you did per game minus three if you have wood elves and divided by your CR. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 01:20 |
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i for one like having the elf games in their , ive also always been a bit against double points for cat a , as it seems to swing the results too far for just two matchs |
_________________
Glory Daze-Dying for Glory since 30th July 2006- Back Now |
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MightyQuinn
Joined: Jan 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 01:24 |
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I am not so sure about always having to play coaches above 155 though unless I am misreading this ???
I like the idea that the Match Ups should be even, me personally never play handicap games unless in tournaments and always try to stay within 10 str of my opp.
How about a CR range, so the high 170's arent always playing the 130's if this is what I am getting from the post also. Maybe the CR cant be more then 10, 15 or 20 CR Dif.
Scrap the Elf Division, if it is Elves Leaves the Forest, Elf games shouldnt count. Alot of times Elf games are mainly for recovery for some anyways.
I mean its hard to find game sometimes at all, but will be harder to meet some of these qualifications. Game Finder doesnt show a persons CR and takes time to look them up, u could lose opponents while checking.
So in order to play an ogre team, you must be even or they have higher str ??? That would mean in alot of games, Ogres will be giving handicaps to Elves, same with Vampires, Halflings and Goblins as their Str is Always alot lower then there TR and I know that I never give handicaps playing with those teams.
So if I am CR 154 and play U Pizzamongol CR 175, I get credit and you dont ??? |
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Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
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You are misreading it. There is a bonus for playing against a 155 CR coach in a matchup where your TS does not exceed his. Other matches still count, you just don't get that particular bonus. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 01:38 |
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the biggest problem I see with this system would be how does it impact the mega-teams. Elves are premium high ts players. Add to that their high blodge access and elf teams can find themselves easily over 220ts. Should that happen, the number of non elven opponents that can match their ts become very limited.
my wood elves didn't complete last seasons cycle because of this. I could only find reasonable match ups on gamefinder for catA, B, D and skaven. but rarely was a catC or nonskaven E team within my tr/ts range. your new system even hinders this more.
I'll participate in E.L.F. with these rules especially since I've got a new high elf team going in (no prob finding even ts races), but i have a feeling if my team's tr/ts balloons, I'd drop out for the next season.
As for the cherry comments, everything is relative. E.L.F. might have some cherrying tendencies (especially among it's top 3% membership), but it's still MUCH better than the non-ELF elven teams. |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 01:41 |
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Generally pretty good changes. I'll quote a few that I disagree with.
[quote=]1. Baseline - +10 points.
Change: In order to receive these points you must play a "baseline" match in which the Team Strength Differential is even (zero) or in your opponent's favor and the opposing coach has a Coach Rating of 155 or higher.[/quote]
I like the principle here but I'm concerned that you'll put off some lower CR coaches. Maybe if your CR is below 145 then let you play vs CR more than 10 higher than you or something? I may well be wrong though.
| Quote: | | One other thing I'm on the fence about: Category D. As I said before, I'm a big fan of tradition. However, there are more and more E.L.F. coaches that actually resent having to play against other elves to finish the cycle and compete. Also, it doesn't really make logical sense that a league "opposed" to elfbowl forces you to play such matches. So, would it break your heart if the E.L.F. cycle became 8 matches against 4 categories of non-elves? Perhaps then I can shorten up the season a bit and run more per year? |
Yes, that would be a very bad idea IMO. Coaches should be able (and be forced) to play against the whole spectrum of opponents.
| Quote: | 3. Scoring.
Per TD scored - +1 point.
Per TD allowed - -1 point.
Change: Halved the weight. |
I think that scoring lots should still count for something, especially considering the TS baseline has been added and the win by ridiculously lots bonus has been taken out  ELF should be about winning tough games, not just about destroying tough teams. A balance should be aimed for.
Changes I really like:
| Quote: | Force opponent concession - +3 points.
4. Casualties.
Per casualty inflicted - +1 point.
Still no negative modifier for casualties suffered.
Change: Again, halved the weight. |
This is nice because it gives enough points for an incentive to beat people up. The change also allocates points fairly between a situation conceded and where you simply continued beating their face in (since a concession is usually a shutout victory). Maybe up the concession by one or two points... maybe not.
| Quote: | 1. Baseline - +10 points.
Change: In order to receive these points you must play a "baseline" match in which the Team Strength Differential is even (zero) or in your opponent's favor and the opposing coach has a Coach Rating of 155 or higher. |
I like this because it means that you can be fairly confident that the winner almost certainly played some real games, even if they picked in between 
| Quote: | | Game played in an Official Fummbl Tournament - +5 points. |
5 points might be a bit much but I definately like this in view of the other changes.
Are two teams from the same coach allowed to compete in the same ELF season? |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Tathar
Joined: Sep 29, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 01:44 |
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Pizzamogul great proposal. Looks like you've managed to incorporate alot of the ideas, balance them and keep it simple. Looking forward to the next E.L.F season.
About category D, I guess it makes sense not to have it in the cycle based on fluff, elves leaving the forest where there aren't other elves to play against  . But you could argue that it is still a valid test of a coaches ability to play all races as it requires different coaching to be successful vs other elves. Also I think it is actulaly one of the hardest categories to get a high score in, as evidenced by it having the lowest record score. I'm pro keeping it but not overly bothered if you decide to scrap it.
Good work Pizzamogul. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 01:48 |
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oh, just realized something. I said I don't like your solution, but didn't give a suggestion for improvement.
here's my suggestion.
#1 keep the old system. completely.
#2 boot out of E.L.F. any team that you believe is shamelessly cherrypicking up the ladder.
If it's just a few bad apples, just "take out the trash". |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 01:55 |
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\o/
Harsh but effective Arktoris. I can see the lure but it might be better if the institution can effectively do that without any overt nastiness. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 03:22 |
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I love these changes. Especially the baseline score. Great idea! I was getting frustrated towards the end of last season... Playing close TS games just didn't pay off, and to be honest the season was not very interesting. Even if I tried to find somewhat fair games, I'm sad to say that only 2 out of my 10 scoring games were vs people with a CR of 150+... There just wasn't any way you could compete and play fun games.
The category D games should be cut... Elves vs elves... yuck!
Also, it's been said earlier in the thread that finding high TS average teams was a real pain. Almost no teams in range to play once you get up over 200 TS. Don't know how this can be fixed though. Seems like getting baseline scores in this category will be few and far between for developed teams.
That being said, over all I think this is a step in the right direction. Next season should be tons of fun!
Cheers! |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Idolen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 03:47 |
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I think these changes are good. I cant see a problem with finding fair ts matches if you really want to tho... its just a question fo ts managment. And if you play a dorf or cd coach with higher CR I think he will help you out with the tr/ts managment...
About cutting the D category... I'm against it. Even tho you think its "yucky" for elves to play elves I must say that its a lot harder to win against a even match'd woodie team with a high CR coach, than it is to win against any other team. I thought the league were to prove that we are domnant elf coaches against ALL races... Granted that I have a strong "elf-bowling" history, but thats the kind of game I like/liked to play. And as we all can testify on... not all elves are cuddly and nice.. All you elfbowl haters now have an excellent way of retiring some of the worst elfbowling teams out there by disguising your teams as elfbowlers...  |
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1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 03:59 |
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| Idolen wrote: | | I think these changes are good. I cant see a problem with finding fair ts matches if you really want to tho... its just a question fo ts managment. And if you play a dorf or cd coach with higher CR I think he will help you out with the tr/ts managment... |
Sounds easy enough, but sometimes it just doesn't work out.
Average Cat teams seem rare at higher TS... I could be wrong of course. |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Soulmask
Joined: May 11, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 05:40 |
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Personally I think it's DIVINE changes. Elfbowling and cherrypicking FTL!!! At first I tought the only 155+ thing would be bad, but at least you almost ensure the guy handles bloodbowl pretty good. I tought about a CR diff way, but then coach 175 not getting credit vs CR 160 opponents didnt make sense. The other way round too... 155 players getting the bonus from 145 coaches...imo it's still Not making sense. I only hope elf winners won't have 10(or 8 ) games vs 155-156 CR guys. For the elf category, I mean, why not keep them? Now the points encourages forcing a concession(concessions are easy to get from pixel-lovers) cas (promoting High cases, thus killing other elves) plus the baseline points ensures the opponent knows what he does. Go Elf genocides! Really I think those rules encourages tough play against other elves. I see nothing wrong with two Elf team fouling each other to death. Just make sure they do foul each other to death and category D is totally fine to me. |
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