FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 15:31

I agree to some extent with Soranos about the dark elves. You dont really need Witch elves assasins or runners in a successful Dark Elf team. However Wood Elves have very expensive players that are easy to skill up but die very very easily and their Wardancers and cacthers are vital too their success. I think it may be advantageous to keep your wood elves at a slightly lower TV and make their wardancers super players and just make the rest of the team blodge with the ocassional guard.

I find it interesting that Dark Elves and Wood Elves have all received more votes than High Elves too. Personally I think High Elves would find things harder than Dark Elves at a High TV. But the low votes for them may just be because they are not played with as widely as Dark Elves.

I personally don't think Chaos will suffer too much as they thrive at a higher TV and IMO the only race that can really hurt them at that TV now are other teams with mutations. (MB, PO, Claw)

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soranos

Joined: May 14, 2009

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 16:04

Oh and another thing. I think Nurgle suffer a lot more under SE than normal Chaos. Their team is more expensive without survival/all-arround skills. The fact that they skill slow might be beneficial for tgheir bank rolls early on, but once they reached a certain plateau and have to replace positionals, it works against them. And about Nurgle's Rott: we all have droughs were we might have some CAS, but no deaths.

freak_in_a_frock

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 16:23

I suppose it depends on how you define 'suffer'. For example i doubt Wood elves will last long over TV225 anway, and therefore they will probably trundle along like they do at the moment. Meanwhile a dwarf team could quite easily get to TV300 lose all their money to spiral expenses than have a bad game vs a nasty chaos team, lose 3 players and have their team fall apart around them. From my limited experience my dark elves haven't suffered yet, and they have been above TV215 (i think). They just got knocked back down and i spent money saved on new players.

P.S for the record it is a dark elf team at the moment in FFB with the highest TV.

soranos

Joined: May 14, 2009

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 16:51

Garion wrote:

I agree to some extent with Soranos about the dark elves. You dont really need Witch elves assasins or runners in a successful Dark Elf team. However Wood Elves have very expensive players that are easy to skill up but die very very easily and their Wardancers and cacthers are vital too their success. I think it may be advantageous to keep your wood elves at a slightly lower TV and make their wardancers super players and just make the rest of the team blodge with the ocassional guard.

I find it interesting that Dark Elves and Wood Elves have all received more votes than High Elves too. Personally I think High Elves would find things harder than Dark Elves at a High TV. But the low votes for them may just be because they are not played with as widely as Dark Elves.

I personally don't think Chaos will suffer too much as they thrive at a higher TV and IMO the only race that can really hurt them at that TV now are other teams with mutations. (MB, PO, Claw)

I would say in regard to the 4 elf sides, that DE are prepared the best, as their AV8 and starting survival skills set off their slightly higher costs.
I think in regard to the other three it is too close to call without extensive experience for me. Woodies and PE obviously suffer from AV7. I think if they could they would trade in their linos for the HE/DE linos after the new changes. So HE have more robust linos, but their lack of skills on the positionals make them a little more vulnerable (but they are also a little cheaper).

I think Slann is worse off than the elves though, the combination of high costs, no survival skills and AG3 is not built for the long run.

I also asume more of a league situation, where you have to develop in order to compete for the title and not an open ladder situation, were you can play low teams for a while in order to stockpile cash.

freak_in_a_frock

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 17:06

I'll repeat... Why would AV7 make you suffer from spiralling expenses more? Surely the fact that your players die at all TV's means that you will in fact suffer from spiralling expenses less. Whereas those teams that find it easy to get to the high TV's will be the ones that get hit the hardest when it does all go pear shaped for their team. Maybe i am missing the point.

asharak

Joined: Nov 27, 2007

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 17:20

I presume the thinking is that AV7 teams can get to high TV but are going to be utterly unable to sustain at that level as they have higher player turnover which requires higher income and spiralling expenses stops this. Tough teams need replacements less often. Also - when it all goes pear-shaped for bashers then they will have the same experience as softie teams - they'll drop down in TV and thus not have to worry! Smile

Edit: I'm not sure I agree with this logic by the way, I just presume it is what people are thinkng. Easier access to claw should level casualties across AV bands a bit, while fend may help elves actually have as good a life expectancy as some orcish brute, by negating the killer MB/PO combo.

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Shraaaag

Joined: Feb 15, 2004

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 17:22

Teams with expensive spp-hogs might get problems replacing dead linemen. However worse case scenario you get freebooters to at least make it to 11 players.

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Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 17:35

I think Pro-elves will actually do pretty well. They are the cheapest of the elves and come with some nice skills so it isnt hard to get them up to a good standard again when they do take a beating. As freak in a frock points out they will likely stay at lower TV for longer periods due to their low AV. Because of their good starting skills, affordability and cheap re-rolls I think pro elves might do fairly well in the new tourney scene with a lot of help from inducements too.

I'm also interested to see who thinks will benefit the most from this (Orcs, Dwarves and Zons IMO) and how SE will affect your skill choices in any given team.

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soranos

Joined: May 14, 2009

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 17:38

freak_in_a_frock wrote:

I'll repeat... Why would AV7 make you suffer from spiralling expenses more? Surely the fact that your players die at all TV's means that you will in fact suffer from spiralling expenses less. Whereas those teams that find it easy to get to the high TV's will be the ones that get hit the hardest when it does all go pear shaped for their team. Maybe i am missing the point.

The turnover of players are naturally higher for teams like elves or skaven than they for dwarves and orcs. Since elf players are more expensive and tend to skill up faster than other races, they are actually also the one that should get to the higher TV plateau quicker. With the lack of Tackle, MB and PO early on, I think the player turn-over should rise in higher TV environment. Yes, blodgers have better chances to survive, but the lifespan of a AV7-rookie lino should be significantly shortet at TV200+ than earlier on.

I get your point that the whole matter is more complex than just looking at costs and AV and things like spp distribution and so on will figure in the equation, but in a league environment, it should be harder to recover for a Woody team once they got knocked back down a little, since there isn't the luxury of having the option of playing against teams in your strength. At higher TV Journeymen and rookie-linos generelly have a lesser impact than before and I'm not sure if relying on star players is the way to develop a team.

freak_in_a_frock

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 18:14

But teams getting knocked down has nothing to do with spiraling expenses, since they are likely to still be making more money at those lower levels, and therefore not being affected by SE. Also they are probably more likely to have players missing most games and again this will lead to them having a lower TV, again suggesting SE will be less of a problem. Meanwhile those bash heavy teams that say at high TV for a long period of time will have all their cash wiped out by SE, meaning that when they do hit that killer game they will be less equipped to recover than their softer opponents. Since SE only start at 175+ and even at TV225 you can expect for the impact to be minimal I would expect most elf coaches to actually enjoy more money on average than in LRB4, this combined with the reduced need to hire freebooters, or in fact the need to just burn cash to lower TR will make elves actually benefit from the way SE is set out.

Time will tell of course. This is just based on my limited experience on FFB (22 with dark elves and another 33 with other teams). So far the teams i have seen do worse are the pact teams. The have so few skills to begin with that they only really start to be a tight team at the levels that SE kick in, this means that as soon as the team is good they have to worry about money.

MisterFurious

Joined: Aug 11, 2010

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 18:16

I've got a skaven team in another league and their TV is over 2 million, almost all of it is on my gutter runners and blitzers. The vast majority of my turnover was linerats with 1 or no skills, and losing them didn't affect my TV much at all, so I was still hit by spiraling expenses pretty hard. I usually won enough from a game to replace one injured rat if I had to, but if I suffered two or more casualties, it could be quite painful. I had a good streak of games were I didn't have any permanent injuries or deaths and I amassed quite a bit of cash in that time, but then I had a string of bad games and I almost went broke. I did what I could to trim the fat off my team like ditching my rat ogre and dropping a reroll, but it didn't help much. I could've fired some of my expensive players, but they're what won me games and I couldn't play without them. I didn't have too much experience with elf teams, but I imagine that it would be a lot worse for them since their players cost so much more. I also have a chaos dwarf team at over 2 million TV and spiraling expenses doesn't mean much to that team since their turnover is so low. They've amassed quite a lot of gold, so on the rare occasion that I need to replace someone, it's not a big deal.

nin

Joined: May 27, 2005

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 18:53

Looks like extending a bit on Chaos:
They are expensive for a basher, and they don't have starting skills. The "final" roster of a Chaos team will have a lot of TV due to player cost, even a streamlined one is expensive, add more TV due to skills and you get to the point were spiralings get all your money... and that's barely where you are peacking your performance.
To get it clear, after some rough numbers I've come out with near 2500 TV (not the most expensive roster and about 3 skills for each player, wich is a lot, but you probably need/want them all) so 50-60k go to expenses, no more money.
...you need Guard
...and Claw+MB+PO to stand against bashers
...and Tackle/Frenzy/DP to get at blodgers
...and Block
...and that's just to bash
Some players will get more than 3 skills or doubles or +stats, others will be about rookie.
Any basher with MB+PO can take out some Beastmen (+ nerfed apo)

So up to that point your team will be strugling because it will likely lack something important.
Even there you may find it laks something extra.
And once you reach there, av8 and expenses will burn your money.

My view on this is that other teams peack (or at least are very competitive) at lower TV, while Chaos will really be at the top only in the ranges where expenses take all your winnings (and they have many av8 players).

soranos

Joined: May 14, 2009

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 19:02

freak_in_a_frock wrote:

But teams getting knocked down has nothing to do with spiraling expenses, since they are likely to still be making more money at those lower levels, and therefore not being affected by SE. Also they are probably more likely to have players missing most games and again this will lead to them having a lower TV, again suggesting SE will be less of a problem. Meanwhile those bash heavy teams that say at high TV for a long period of time will have all their cash wiped out by SE, meaning that when they do hit that killer game they will be less equipped to recover than their softer opponents. Since SE only start at 175+ and even at TV225 you can expect for the impact to be minimal I would expect most elf coaches to actually enjoy more money on average than in LRB4, this combined with the reduced need to hire freebooters, or in fact the need to just burn cash to lower TR will make elves actually benefit from the way SE is set out.

Time will tell of course. This is just based on my limited experience on FFB (22 with dark elves and another 33 with other teams). So far the teams i have seen do worse are the pact teams. The have so few skills to begin with that they only really start to be a tight team at the levels that SE kick in, this means that as soon as the team is good they have to worry about money.

Outside of fumbbl I normaly only played short leagues with no more than 18 games per team, so it is also just theorizing on my part. I imagine it the way MisterFurious discribed. The teams that get knocked down also has to replace players at at least 70k each, who will be less effective and harder to skill up now in this higher TV environment. As long as it is MNG or ma- it is all good, but AV7 tend to have these horrible game were they lose 2 or more players more often and there is where the main problem lies in my eyes. Bashers might earn less, but should also don't have to spend nearly as much. Claw is not that often and PO is much more effective vs AV7 than vs AV8/9.

Anyway, we will have to see.

SillySod

Joined: Oct 10, 2006

Posted: Sep 16, 2010 - 23:37

Garion wrote:

I also think there is going to be some serious gold farming done by some coaches at a low tv. However this will not really help that much because their team will still end up loosing all their money once they hit a high enough tv

Define "serious gold farming". My humans "farmed" more than 750k of gold during their first 20 games on the cyanide client. This was more or less an accident because I was experimenting with TV management. I wouldnt count it as "serious gold farming" because it wasnt.... I'd expect a serious goldfarmer to accrue in excess of two million.

Theres no way that spiralling expense will hurt a team with that kind of bank balance.

Most carefully built teams will want to hang around at low TV for a while anyway. e.g. an orc team is much stronger if its black orcs are skilled and its sensible to skill them at low TV. Competitively built orc teams will gold farm more or less casually.

Nighteye wrote:

You forget that the goldfarming have already started. There are no expenses in LRB4.

Undead and AV9 teams are gonna rock after the transfer, until they run out of gold.

Gold farming is relatively tough in LRB4. As Rijssiej pointed out spiralling expenses do exist in the form of the winnings table. Worse, any gold you successfully farm gets counted towards your TR and inhibits further farming. Besides - gold farming in LRB4 almost certainly means playing games at a disadvantage (or without an advantage) because you are passing over cheaply purchased stars and wizards. Farming gold in LRB6 more or less corresponds with optimal play and complements other forms of teambuilding.

I see no reason why Av9 teams should do especially well, if they do then its almost certainly a result of them not being harvested by the multiple claw teams that LRB6 brings. Not spiralling expenses.

Undead are not going to rock - reports suggest that the regen teams do very poorly after a certain TV.

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Last edited by SillySod on %b %17, %2010 - %11:%Sep; edited 1 time in total

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Sep 17, 2010 - 09:12

SillySod wrote:

I'd expect a serious goldfarmer to accrue in excess of two million.
Theres no way that spiralling expense will hurt a team with that kind of bank balance.

Yeah I guess that is true actually. I was also thinking that injuries do not hurt teams quite as much as they used too. I used to fire a player as soon as he was niggled but I believe there will be more niggled players hanging around for a little longer these days.

Also it is a shame about the undead teams. I hadn't heard that but I will take your word on it. No block on mummies is a crushing blow for Undead. Plus Dauntless on any team makes life a bit harder for them too.