Desultory
Joined: Jun 24, 2008
|
 Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 10:53 |
 
|
What persons can be credited with originally inventing the concept of the cage, and screening, and other commonly used tactics etc etc??
Do these tactics trace all the way back to the original rulebook? LRB1 in 1986?? 
When did they appear? |
|
|
ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 12:53 |
|
1&2nd ed were a bit of a mess in regards to tactics since concepts like a single blitz didn't exist.
1st ed everyone could move, block and "attack", and the game was very much "warhammer on a football pitch" with a lot of different stats/allowances and dice rolls that we would now see as quite unnecessary and complicated.
2nd revised that, brought out the astrogranite pitch (which you'll be familiar with in the box), and consolidated a lot of the stats/allowances into central profiles. A lot of dice rolls were removed and the game's speed and momentum altered (less of a full-scale battle, although still very dissimilar to current format).
In 2nd ed, there still wasn't a single blitz though - players could move their full MA and then throw a block, or they could move their full MA and then their sprint allowance (SP) if not blocking. There was a move that probably could be seen to evolve into the blitz (the shoulder charge) introduced in the 2nd ed campaign book.
(as an aside, the Defence could declare a blitz! kick-off once per half if i remember right).
So caging as a recognised and regular tactic is something that really only emerged as a strong tool in 3rd ed onwards.
Screening on the other hand, has always been sort of common sense, but it was less employed to avoid your ballcarrier being hit, and more to decide where the next 6 turns of the scrum were going to be. Games were long. |
_________________
 |
|
Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 13:24 |
|
I believe it was me. After I decided on the order of the alphabet but before I invented rap. |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 13:41 |
|
i know that when I was first introduced as a teenager to the game in 3rd ed... that was around 1995.. our league manager already knew about the concept of cages and instructed us to them..
he suggested for teams like chaos and orcs to use them whereas my highelves were supposed to win by dodging and passing... a tactic that was probability wise relatively hopeless in direct comparison..
...the 'screen' as a terminology I haven't really heard much about in terms of tactics prior to the 1000 losses book but the tactic certainly has been around for a long time too. And probably the term too.. I think the first time I encountered a wide screen was around '06 against a 170CR coach, which seemed abhorrently high at that time.
As for the regular screen, that kinda merges fluently into a cage.... in a way you always have one on the line and then an improper set up cage is always a bit of a ´defective screen aswell...
I wouldn't be surprised if all those startegies predate 3rd ed although I'm not quite sure how applicable they really are to older rulesets...
I remember quite vividly tho that anyone who talked in the context of skill about the game rather than dumb luck in 2004 was a bit regarded like a fool... quite interesting how these things change over time... |
|
|
ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 14:15 |
|
| Wreckage wrote: | i know that when I was first introduced as a teenager to the game in 3rd ed... that was around 1995.. our league manager already knew about the concept of cages and instructed us to them..
he suggested for teams like chaos and orcs to use them whereas my highelves were supposed to win by dodging and passing... a tactic that was probability wise relatively hopeless in direct comparison..
...the 'screen' as a terminology I haven't really heard much about in terms of tactics prior to the 1000 losses book but the tactic certainly has been around for a long time too. And probably the term too.. I think the first time I encountered a wide screen was around '06 against a 170CR coach, which seemed abhorrently high at that time.
As for the regular screen, that kinda merges fluently into a cage.... in a way you always have one on the line and then an improper set up cage is always a bit of a ´defective screen aswell...
I wouldn't be surprised if all those startegies predate 3rd ed although I'm not quite sure how applicable they really are to older rulesets...
I remember quite vividly tho that anyone who talked in the context of skill about the game rather than dumb luck in 2004 was a bit regarded like a fool... quite interesting how these things change over time... |
Genau - when I say "screening is common sense", I basically mean that setting up so there's not a direct hit on your ballcarrier is common sense, no matter what edition. But in 1st & 2nd ed, you weren't really doing this out of any great defensive strategy that you would reposition every turn, but more because you were attempting to dictate the points upon which the scrum would converge. A rolling screen down the sideline (Bright Crusader's "left hook" as an example) was the sort of "special play" you'd see referred to in handbooks in 2nd ed.
In terms of giving a name to it? For sure, nobody really used recognised nomenclature - it's a natural action, given without any great thought. It also wasn't something you'd see used for many turns since both teams could (and would) simply rush towards each other and block every single turn if movement allowed for it.
The early editions were very much "trench warfare", no matter what races were used, with just about every team having players you could chuck it to in a pinch (eg. 2nd ed Ag3 skeleton catchers).
3rd ed is imo, where you begin to see not only the worthwhile nature of tactics evolving over turns, but also the game and ruleset beginning to change to support and encourage them. |
_________________
|
|
JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 14:57 |
|
It's not widely known, but there are Egyptian carvings inside the Great Pyramid of Giza that depict Blood Bowl being played with cages and screens ...
 |
_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!"  |
|
kwèk
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 15:25 |
|
| JellyBelly wrote: | It's not widely known, but there are Egyptian carvings inside the Great Pyramid of Giza that depict Blood Bowl being played with cages and screens ...
|
And pie... loads of pie. |
_________________
It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'try to be a little kinder'.
~Aldous Huxley~ |
|
Desultory
Joined: Jun 24, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 15:38 |
|
It's interesting hearing about the early versions.
It would be amusing/interesting to play LRB1 rules (probably for a couple of games before it got annoying). Any rulebooks around?
Where is your league manager now Wreckage!? Maybe he will know who invented the cage!
Screening obviously isn't that intuitive (common sense) as rookies don't use them, until they've been taught a bit in 145 club. And even 150TR's and beyond still forget or don't do it well most of the time.
Do you think players have improved significantly since the '1000 losses' book? When did that arise: LRB x? |
_________________
 |
|
ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 15:50 |
|
I don't meaning screening in the sense of a "2x2 column" or the like, I mean the most basic tenet of a screen imaginable - even a 1-deep wall of players, as ineffective as it may be over several turns for a lot of teams is actually still a screen of sorts.
Making that sort of "mini-fortification" becomes intuitive once you have a grasp of the fact 90% of the field is going to engage!
It did take a real while for people to think past the most basic ideas of a screen though - even in LRB4 you'd still get some people just moving a wall downfield relying on guard/ST and mopping up stragglers with DP boots. Why not? It often worked. It still does sometimes. |
_________________
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 16:19 |
|
| Desultory wrote: | | Where is your league manager now Wreckage!? Maybe he will know who invented the cage! |
I think he got it from a White Dwarf, not sure...
| Quote: | | Do you think players have improved significantly since the '1000 losses' book? When did that arise: LRB x? |
Lol... I'd hope that it has allowed a few more people to catch up quickly. As for me. upon reading it I didn't really discover anything that I didn't already knew .
I think there has been a constant evolution in terms of strategy and coaching quality over the years regardless of individual contributions.
The switch from LRB4 to LRB5 symbolizes a significant break in the sense that optimizing potential is so important in this game that this rule change required significant adaptations in behavior for a coach to still be able to compete on a top level.
So as far as Fumbbl is concerned from that was a setback in 2011 in regards to coaching quality but overall I feel like even the people with such unimaginably low CR as 155 play at an incredibly competetive level these days.
Getting an edge on the other hand on top level is so difficult that things like race picks, stats ups etc have probably a greater impact than anything else.
I have often contemplated about the relevance of keeping the own edge granting footholds rather a secret. I think that is probably the only way... to have a strategy that is efficient but not widely used. To really come out on top. Along with using a good race of course.
As for me I think my strategies are too well known by now as that I could do really well.. I think whatever works of my way of strategy is common strategy for a lot of people by now and what doesn't work is only done by myself and discarded for better approaches by others. |
|
|
Desultory
Joined: Jun 24, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 16:47 |
|
I read your '1000 losses' book so you can probably take credit for every win I have, as the concept of screening didn't exist to me before then.
I also read bbtactics.com a lot when I first started: Don't know if a coach from FUMBBL runs that.
Thanks to the White Dwarf (A Star or a guy from the Dwarven race?) for the cage and every strategy that makes Blood Bowl great. |
_________________
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 16:49 |
|
|
mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
|
The first time I read about the cage (though I think they called it a 'pocket') was an article in White Dwarf by Robin Dews. He was a human coach and WD editor. This was not long after 3rd edition released when WD regularly featured BB tactica articles. |
_________________
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
|
keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jan 15, 2017 - 17:16 |
|
| Desultory wrote: | What persons can be credited with originally inventing the concept of the cage, and screening, and other commonly used tactics etc etc??
Do these tactics trace all the way back to the original rulebook? LRB1 in 1986??
When did they appear? |
Problem sovled. It goes back to 2nd Ed when I personally invented it. XD |
_________________
The Drunker I get, the more I spill
"Keggie is the guy with the bleach blond hair that gives answers nobody else would think of."
Jeffro |
|
mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
|
Also 3rd edition DT made cages a very different prospect! |
_________________
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
|
|
|
Vamps win another ma...
Search
