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Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2019 - 18:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I would leave High Elf at 2 points, seems to me they became more popular because of that & would loose too much popularity as a result.

While I agree we don’t want to encourage bash teams I still think Renegades should go to 2.5.

From a grid filling point of view I would like to see more Amazons so would go 2.5 for them. But I am sure that would be controversial.

I would also be happy to leave it alone entirely.

Not Undead but perhaps the oldest living coach!

Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2019 - 18:29 Reply with quote Back to top

so if we are thinking tiers as in BBT2 why not 20 games per team and 5 teams? keep the 9 points per roster, shuffle the tiers a bit, and bum! new season

also, being only 20 games might be helpful for stunties? dont know why that sounds in my head as a fact...

Joined: Jun 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2019 - 19:29 Reply with quote Back to top

I feel games 15+ are a lot harder for elves once the range opens and you can run into some decent teams with 300tv uphill games so 20 games only would be a bit too good for elves and the non trophy players would profit less from jucy elf cherries Smile

Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2019 - 19:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Big props for calling vamps the 0.5 point team, and norse at 2.5 makes a lot of sense. On the other hand i would love to see the points meaning the same here, and also for adjustment. So a similar system what purplechest proposed. I also like the fact that purplechest proposed smaller benefit for low tier teams. 2.5 per unused point is still very significant.

P.S. I am not sure how to squeeze in, but i would love to see more teams at the 0.5-1.5 point range to give real flexibility upon roster choices.

P.S.2. An idea to provide diversity: Allow to go over budget, but penalize doing so by severe penalty points. (Like double of the standard. If unused point means 2.5, then an extra point spend means 5.0 points penalty.)


Joined: Sep 02, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2019 - 22:55 Reply with quote Back to top

An idea for the second round, when you have already played through all 4 races is that you get 1.5 points (+if you didnt use all points in the first round) to burn on your team. And if you play all games with that team and wanna start on round 3 you get again 1.5 points to pich a race.

That way you can "save" points for a second and third round if you wanna go that far into the mix. Maybe pick a goblin in the second round for 0 points and when you get to the thrid round you have 3 points to use.



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2019 - 19:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd prefer if we kept the 5 teams per squad, even with the reduced number of games (20 games each, maybe?), for the only reason that I had already decided which teams to play and now it might be that I have to decide which one to drop Laughing

Joined: Sep 25, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2019 - 09:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Based purely on the current BBT standings, reducing the requirement to 100 games should = a higher completion rate.
A lot of folks sitting on 70 - 90 odd games finished currently and could probably finish a 100 game run.

Trophy is a great feature - and always extra spice when 2 trophy teams get drawn vs each other.

Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2019 - 09:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Please, please, please: abolish the bonus points per games played.

It should only exist if it does more good than harm, and I cannot see that at all.

The scoring system is my favorite thing about the trophy. Because it is so simple! Count your wins, add half your ties, done. Want to know your win rate? Devide your score by your number of games. Want to know if you can catch another coach or team? Look at how many games he is ahead, that is how many points you can catch up. Or devide the difference in score by the number of games he is ahead and you know the winrate you need. Such elegant simplicity!
Or it could be like this, if you didnt have to check whether some bonus points are included, and if so how many, for both coaches, then subtract them from the score to make those compareable. But dont forget to add them back and the pending bonus points too if you want to make predictions about final scores. It is a huge nuisance where it could all be so nice and clean.
It effectively stops the score functioning as a measure for success, as it mixes points earned through successful playing with points for just being there. So in the tables, you can rank higher than a more successful coach just because you were around more and clicked end turn.

So to be worth it, the ruling should give us a good positive effect. Does it? It clearly has nothing to give for all finishers. At only 100 games for bbt3, we are looking at what, 80-100 coaches maybe? And the non-finishers, what is the situation where they play a game they would not have without the bonus points. I just can't see it. I do understand the theory about about more points = more incentive to play, but here it is a phantasm. If people are lured to play by points - well that is what playing gives you anyway. Unless you have a 100% losing expectation, which is flat out nonexistant in Blood Bowl. And even if you have the worst possible losing record of 0/0/24 - the last pity point is not what will make you play or not. You obviously have other, stronger motives or you would have stopped at 0/0/23 already, or most likely not have taken part at all. Or will you think: hey, I play those games, get another pity point and that takes me past coach X who only played like 3 games and then I can be pround and brag about it? The FUMBBL coaches i meet on the pitch are not like that, at all.
What the pity points rule might effect is which teams people activate. So non-finishers will try to end their runs on game numbers that dont "waste" pity points. Or finishers might drag their teams towards milestones on their way through because it looks pretty. This is what I did. But the only thing this gives the trophy is more monoactivations of rookie protected teams.
I will dare to say: not a single game more was played due the pity point rule.

Let me repeat myself because i feel so strong about it: please abolish the pity points.

When I will make my squad, I will chose teams I like or am curious about and disregard the meta in chosing optimal races. Heck, I was the moron who chose Nurgle for 3 points.
But I am quite puzzled by the logic behind the points for unused squad points. I mean the idea with the tier system is that you can pick expensive team but then are forced to take cheap ones as well. That is the how the use of 'bad' or unpopular races like stuties is pushed.
And then you get a bonus for building a squad that is worse than it would have to be? Like as if you were getting free inducement money for picking 5 times pass block on your Orc team and thereby voluntarily make yourself weaker than you have to be? That doesnt sound much like Blood Bowl to me. The races are supposed to be different in strength. And the tier system already acknowledges that.
If you want to make all races equaly playable, why not be consequent about it and abolish the tier system altogether, allocate a bonus to each race ranging from 0 for Amazons to like 12 or so for Ogres. And then let everybody pick 4 teams for a squad, no tiers needed. And every team looking at the same final score after 25 games. (A less for the ones you actively want to discourage using by giving them less points than their winrate warrants like Nurgle and a little higher for the teams you want to promote by giving them more points than their winrate warrants).

I hope I did not come across too hostile here. Let me add that I will play the trophy again regardless of whether the rules will be more to my taste or more to someone elses. And I will be deeply grateful for being provided so much fun for free yet again. I just thought it ouldnt hurt to voice my opinion on the rare occasion that I have one.

Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2019 - 09:54 Reply with quote Back to top

If there is no bonus point per game, then it is much easier to pick a 0 point tier race, and do not plan to play any game with them, which would punch diversity on its face.


Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2019 - 10:06 Reply with quote Back to top

That would only be coaches who play less than 75 games. It would not be a punch, hardly even a tickle.
I guess it makes sense in an academical ivory tower.

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2019 - 10:51
Reply with quote Back to top

... and on the flip side, there are people who argue that the "participation bonus" should be much much stronger (concrete suggestion was a 4/2/1 scoring).

I'm happy with the participation bonus as it is and do not intend to change that aspect of the scoring system.

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2019 - 15:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Actually I don't think it's the flip side. I think the system as is rewards winners, which isn't a needed purpose of participation points. So I'd be equally happy abolishing it because I think there should be participation points that rewards losing teans, and the current system doesn't do that.

Given that, and Rawlfs initial concern that the points per game isn't simple, I'd be in favor of switching to simple.

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2019 - 15:34 Reply with quote Back to top

For Rawlfs second concern, I think he may have a point, and it's a good reason not to give much, or any, bonus points for unspent squad points.

Specifically, say I only want to play 1 2 point team, say, Norse. I then choose 3 stunty teams, and then I don't play them at all.

I still get the 'unspent' points, and if I'm great at my 2 point team (elf or Norse), I could still have 50-60 points, and only play 30 games. Sure, I'm not competing for the top, but I can argue that if I'm bad enough at those stunty teams, I'd get low enough wins or draws that it doesn't actually matter of I play. (And that brings us back to participation points - 3 points for playing 30 games isn't going to make me noticeably more competitive, so why spend the time to play 90 games?)

Personally I think that's completely unrealistic, no team in BB is so bad that you're unlikely to win even a few, but it isn't unreasonable to have only 10% of your games as wins (note I stated it that way because I'm specifically not counting draws in that number, which matters for some people, and this whole argument is about worst case outlooks).

Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2019 - 16:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
... and on the flip side, there are people who argue that the "participation bonus" should be much much stronger (concrete suggestion was a 4/2/1 scoring).

I'm happy with the participation bonus as it is and do not intend to change that aspect of the scoring system.

So how strong a "participation bonus" would have been needed to incentivize YOU to play a 5th game in this season, rather than doing other hobbies in that time instead? Wink

I am convinced that no bonus whatsoever will have any effect.
Either coaches are competitive and play for points anyway and the bonus is the same pick-up score for all of them. Or they play casually and they dont care much for their score, and then their decision whether they play an extra game or do something else with their time will be based on other motives than whatever bonus points or other e-pat on the head they get for playing BB.

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2019 - 18:11 Reply with quote Back to top

The world is not just black and white. There are many shades of grey.

Something that encourages some people will not encourage others.

[SL] Old World Rumbble - Brand new teams only - ALWAYS recruiting
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