FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Fanky

Joined: Jul 07, 2016

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 15:33

Java wrote:

Honestly, who cares, dwarves don't need to pass the ball.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only dorf.

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 15:37

I think where people are annoyed or disappointed is - the intent was clearly to make passing more specialised. I guess in that respect they have been successful in a round about way. But it could have easily been designed is a much much better way.

The problem is they've made throwers more expensive in some instances, made some passing skills worse, and introduce WIP which is just awful. WIP makes passing worse than in the current edition even with specialised throwers in some cases. For instance I will only ever try a quick or short unless its the last turn of the half now and no way would I consider building a player with skills to make a long pass a consideration.

Then aside from passing being somewhat nerfed in isolation, when you look at it in the context of the rest of the rulebook it is even worse. Skill selection is designed in such a way it promotes min maxing to the point where all passing skills (aside from leader) seem a big waste of tv. Now this is nothing new, but it just seems even worse than it was before.

Then are some outright awful decisions like making it impossible for zombies to throw.

I get cabs point that the tactical element of keeping a thrower near the play to capitalise on loose balls does in theory add another tactical consideration to your game plan. But really this is of little importance, a fast player is often better for this kind of action anyway, and who wants to pass anyway when you have both a pass and catch roll to make rather than use an ma8 player to pick up the loose ball and then make a hand off which should be more than enough the vast majority of the time.

To get passing in this ruleset working as intended it needs a complete re-write.

Or maybe our presupposition is incorrect and the designers wanted to kill off passing completely.

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uzkulak

Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 16:35

I think its all a clever ploy to make diving catch a more useful skill.

mattwakeman

Joined: Feb 15, 2005

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 16:43

The problem with passing in Bloodbowl is that the nature of the game system, bad thing = end turns, means that players instantly become extremely risk averse. And why wouldn't they??

So, if you want to make passing more of a thing you have to fundamentally alter one of the building blocks of the game. The only way that I can see it working is by making the consequences of a failed pass less severe then they are now, BUT, obviously that means that some teams would gain a huge advantage because of that.

Ultimately with the current team designs which, instead of being clustered more around the middle of the dash/bash spectrum, are right at the extreme ends, means that passing can simply never be tweaked to make everybody better at the same rate. Instead somebody gets 1% better and somebody else gets %75 better.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 16:51

Java wrote:

The two sides of this "debate" are not arguing over the same issue.

One side is saying that passing is worse.

The other replies "it works quite nicely and you have to adapt".

Which is not a counterargument to the original statement, and that's why people take it as provocation, because it completely misses the point that was originally made.

Of course one could present it in the reverse, but the starting point of of contention was always "is it really better, or is it actually worse?" because the promotional material from GW mentioned quite extensively how much passing had been improved.

Honestly, who cares, dwarves don't need to pass the ball.

Yes... I think this is the main issue. While passing is more risky now the overall change seem to be doing what it was designed to do.

Throwers are the ones that now will throw the ball, if you don't take a thrower you will more or less loose the option to throw the ball.

Some teams are now designed to run the ball with very little other options.

I know that in many ways that the running game is the more optimal way to play the game, but we still pass the ball regardless quite often. Game can often require a pass to secure a ball or a touchdown.

Now we will need a player with passing skills to make those plays viable. It might also require some investments in passing skills to have the option be more reliable.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 16:57

I already pass the ball less than once per game. That is not quite often. Particularly when you consider that the majority of my passes are vanity spp passes. I probably pass the ball (for actual gameplay purposes) less than once ever 4 games.

Yes, I've played hundreds of elf games.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 16:59

neubau wrote:

mate, i wrote it here a thousand times already. people didnt want worse passing. gw advertised a new and exciting passing system, which it is not.

i freely admit i only write into this thread to tell CAB his takes are horrible, but thats because they are.

edit: also, CAB has written quite controversial stuff in a lot of threads, he got malmir, one of the best coaches of the site to actually insult him and quite a few others called him out on his out-there takes. his latest "the rules arent bad because on table top you can ignore them" take - ON THE FUMBBL FORUM, where we cant do that, makes me pretty sure he is trolling. so when CAB is trolling, why shouldnt i troll him back.

To be honest I don't put much stock in authoritarian or elitist BS so if you like to ridicule me or what I say that is up to you.
I do however respect people who are cordial even if argumentative and come with good arguments.

I know how to play this game without having to play hundreds of games every year... perhaps 25-50 games a year are more my ballpark... Wink

I also don't think I written allot of controversial stuff, just that some people are more sensitive than others I guess. Smile

Last edited by CAB on %b %07, %2020 - %17:%Dec; edited 1 time in total

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 17:04

Nelphine wrote:

I already pass the ball less than once per game. That is not quite often. Particularly when you consider that the majority of my passes are vanity spp passes. I probably pass the ball (for actual gameplay purposes) less than once ever 4 games.

Yes, I've played hundreds of elf games.

Then I guess the passing changes will not change anything for you in the future either.

And... no... I don't pass very often either. But I do like the option to do so if I need it. I never found it wasteful to have one or two skills for the option to make a good pass play. Even if I did not do it in every game.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 17:24

Of course coaches here can use hand offs as workaround for moving the ball, but I guess that they actually would like to have a more reliable passing and pass more.
This is why they are disappointed by the rules.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 17:29

MattDakka wrote:

Of course coaches here can use hand offs as workaround for moving the ball, but I guess that they actually would like to have a more reliable passing and pass more.
This is why they are disappointed by the rules.

Yes... I wanted that too... so I'm not completely satisfied either.

I just try to find what good in the new mechanic that I see from the little testing that we have done.

I don't pass that often and I think I passed slightly less in the new rules... but when you pass it is usually very important. If you have a thrower you will now protect that player and think a bit more about that players positioning. That is something you might not have done before in the same way.
I now tend to avoid using the thrower as just another lineman.

Phontome

Joined: Oct 09, 2020

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 18:38

I am still a noob/old table top player. that being said.

I am one of those players that actually used passing as part of my tactics. Hence my record. Smile

I like the idea of making throwers relevant. That part is not all that bad. The WI rules as implemented are a croc. The pass should have a greater chance of actually getting in the area of the receiver.

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AzraelEVA

Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 18:52

A Way to make the Passing more relevant is to reward players for doing a lot of touchdowns. In this version there is a lot of incentive to do that, but one change is still needed to break off the 2 - 1 grind:
If your Team scores a Touchdown you will receive the Ball next drive unless it is half time.
Now scoring early can lead to more touchdowns and a Passing Play is essential for those early scores. With Wild Inaccurate and interceptions there is a lot of risk in these kind of plays and a way for slower Teams to still win the game.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 20:03

AzraelEVA wrote:

A Way to make the Passing more relevant is to reward players for doing a lot of touchdowns. In this version there is a lot of incentive to do that, but one change is still needed to break off the 2 - 1 grind:
If your Team scores a Touchdown you will receive the Ball next drive unless it is half time.
Now scoring early can lead to more touchdowns and a Passing Play is essential for those early scores. With Wild Inaccurate and interceptions there is a lot of risk in these kind of plays and a way for slower Teams to still win the game.

I agree... there need to be a more bold change to the turn structure of the game. There need to be a real incentive to throw the ball which there really are not with the current turn structure.

Any attempt at penalise stalling will just make people irritated.

We are currently testing the BB54 turn structure... or rather will do so in the next season. This is a variant where every player get a single drive in each half so the game is four drives with a five/four turns per drive. Once a TD is scored the drive ends and turns left is gone.

Giving the ball to the scoring team would probably be very unbalanced in favour of teams such as Elves and Skaven, unfortunately. Otherwise it surely would give incentive to throwing the ball.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 20:19

Playing 5 turns per drive favours fast teams and it's a big disadvantage for slow teams.
Who would play Khemri or Dwarfs?
Khemri + Pouring Rain + opponent with Kick = almost impossible to score.

Phontome

Joined: Oct 09, 2020

Posted: Dec 07, 2020 - 20:36

Simple rule change would probably work. Remove one row of WI. Make it I instead.

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