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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 13:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm intending to keep the best passing lizardman until i literally can't. That means if he doesn't die on pitch, he should hit 300+ games.

It's not necessarily the best way to play, and I don't think you could do it with 2 players at once, but you CAN keep your team icon.
Waagh



Joined: Apr 13, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 14:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I have played a small number of games on table top and so far random skills haven't been great for our four team league. Human blitzer got frenzy which was great, dark elf linos one got shadowing one got dauntless, sounds okay and situational but naked dauntless? Not so great, last we had a zombie with pro. What I am seeing or thinking is that random skills or the random ledgend is probably best on a skill player not already part of your planned team development. Something that already has some kind of survival skills, fast enough to make use of any random skill. My candidates for random skills are, gutter runners, blitzers of all kinds, ghouls, throwers (if you ever actually skill one) basically anything that has MA7 or better and comes with block or dodge after you've already developed your key players (killer, baller, support, pest). As for whining about the huge teams that "have to redraft" just don't redraft them put them on the shelf then in hopes that things change the way you want. I tell my children "Whining about it won't help you get your way, so muscle up buttercup, dry your tears and figure out how to make it better, and if you can't control it move on"
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 14:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Whining doesn't change the things but it helps to vent out frustration.
That said, I don't think I would take random skills on expensive positional players.
Gutter Runners want Block/Wrestle first skill, Blitzers want Guard MB Tackle (if Humans) and DE Blitzers want Dodge for synergy with AG 4 and protection.
Random skills can work on cheap players you can fire often, such as Hobgoblins, Zombies, Skeletons. Risking to "ruin" a positional player's build taking a random skill (for example, Shadowing is a terribad skill on DE blitzers) is not worth the TV discount.
AzraelEVA



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 14:52 Reply with quote Back to top

But let's say you a play a Team that has 6 of the same positionals and are at the start of developing the team. Like Black Orcs for instance. You decide that your first level up on a Black Orc is random level up in the strength category.
If he gets arm bar you can develop that player as a Turnover creater with diving tackle standfirm.
If he gets Mighty Blow you can skill him as a Line Holder with Guard and Block. If he gets Multiblock you can get him Dauntless. With all the Grab you can create a lot of situations to use it.
If he gets Piledriver you build him as a Blitzer with dirty player and sneaky git.
Thick Skull, Juggernaut, Strong arm would be a Bad roll.
WIth Break Tackle you can try to get a Strength increase to be more mobile.
And Guard is always good no matter what you need.
This is a 3/12 chance to get a bad result.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 15:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Waagh wrote:
I have played a small number of games on table top and so far random skills haven't been great for our four team league. Human blitzer got frenzy which was great, dark elf linos one got shadowing one got dauntless, sounds okay and situational but naked dauntless? Not so great, last we had a zombie with pro. What I am seeing or thinking is that random skills or the random ledgend is probably best on a skill player not already part of your planned team development. Something that already has some kind of survival skills, fast enough to make use of any random skill. My candidates for random skills are, gutter runners, blitzers of all kinds, ghouls, throwers (if you ever actually skill one) basically anything that has MA7 or better and comes with block or dodge after you've already developed your key players (killer, baller, support, pest). As for whining about the huge teams that "have to redraft" just don't redraft them put them on the shelf then in hopes that things change the way you want. I tell my children "Whining about it won't help you get your way, so muscle up buttercup, dry your tears and figure out how to make it better, and if you can't control it move on"


One thing I wonder is why Dauntless is a bad skill on a Lineman, the choice is that or no skill at all and you only pay 10k TV for it?!?

I have also played some games and I have not really been sorry for taking some random skill on my Lineman even if they did get situational skills.

I had one who got Sure Hands for example... but that actually turned out great in two of my games of the total four played with this player. He also is a secondary pick up guy if the Thrower is knocked out or worse.

It is about opportunity as well as anything else.

Dauntless is a great skill for player efficiency in many situations. You only need one or two players where you otherwise would need two or three players. This can be quite significant in key situations, and only for 10k. Sure... Block skill would be better, but you could now save up for Block skill on this player if you can get to 8 more SPP.
Waagh



Joined: Apr 13, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 15:36 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
Waagh wrote:
I have played a small number of games on table top and so far random skills haven't been great for our four team league. Human blitzer got frenzy which was great, dark elf linos one got shadowing one got dauntless, sounds okay and situational but naked dauntless? Not so great, last we had a zombie with pro. What I am seeing or thinking is that random skills or the random ledgend is probably best on a skill player not already part of your planned team development. Something that already has some kind of survival skills, fast enough to make use of any random skill. My candidates for random skills are, gutter runners, blitzers of all kinds, ghouls, throwers (if you ever actually skill one) basically anything that has MA7 or better and comes with block or dodge after you've already developed your key players (killer, baller, support, pest). As for whining about the huge teams that "have to redraft" just don't redraft them put them on the shelf then in hopes that things change the way you want. I tell my children "Whining about it won't help you get your way, so muscle up buttercup, dry your tears and figure out how to make it better, and if you can't control it move on"


One thing I wonder is why Dauntless is a bad skill on a Lineman, the choice is that or no skill at all and you only pay 10k TV for it?!?

I have also played some games and I have not really been sorry for taking some random skill on my Lineman even if they did get situational skills.

I had one who got Sure Hands for example... but that actually turned out great in two of my games of the total four played with this player. He also is a secondary pick up guy if the Thrower is knocked out or worse.

It is about opportunity as well as anything else.

Dauntless is a great skill for player efficiency in many situations. You only need one or two players where you otherwise would need two or three players. This can be quite significant in key situations, and only for 10k. Sure... Block skill would be better, but you could now save up for Block skill on this player if you can get to 8 more SPP.


Naked dauntless isn't great because of the chance of double skulls, skulls both down, or the double both down results. Not to mention if the dauntless fails then you're making a 1d block or a -2d block. It is okay, I would just rather not have a skill at all than naked dauntless. Dauntless on a blitzer? Then I would be like okay that's fine. It is a short league by the book if we play to the letter of, which we will, he will only get 6 games per season (rulebook states that in league play each team plays the other twice) so in this short environment his line elf will likely never earn the SSP to buy block.

@mattdakka

It's true that the expensive position players want this or that however, in my opinion position players that you can have 4 or more of you may want for fun to do random skills. It won't be the most effective thing every time but it is a place I think you have the best chance to create a somewhat useful fun player.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 15:55 Reply with quote Back to top

If you play for fun you can take whatever skill, of course.
I'm talking about effective, competitive builds.
Fun is too subjective to discuss about it.
Anyway, since the Season is not so long (15 games on FUMBBL, but can be shorter in other leagues), the few skills you take on positionals should be effective.
We are not talking about players able to develop to 4-5 skills, but just 2 or 3, if I'm not wrong.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 16:26 Reply with quote Back to top

ehhhh it depends. I've had a ghoul on my undead team earn more than 70 spp in 10 games, 3 seasons in a row.

Other players should be able to be even better than a ghoul.

Of course, that was with focused MVPs, but I would expect 50spp to be possible in 10 games with random mvps. So you COULD aim for a single player to get 4-5 chosen skills in one season.

But if you want it on multiple players, then yes, that cuts down drasticaly, and you're looking at 3 random skills on several players being the max in one season.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 16:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, I was talking about skilling more than one positional player.
Even if I had say 4 Human Blitzers or 4 DE Blitzers, I would not risk to randomize the skills, especially the first 2. I want Guard on all the 4 H. Blitzers and Dodge on the DE ones.

Now that I think of it, this could have been fun: for each skill you earn, you pick 1 and 1 is random (maybe starting from the second level up, not from the first one).
That would have created some different players.
That way, even if the season forces to fire players, those 15 games could be more fun (due to greater skill build variety).


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 03, 2020 - 16:49; edited 2 times in total
Waagh



Joined: Apr 13, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 16:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah I agree completely. It's just that there is a caliber of coach on this sight that dosent need every player to be brutality effective to win games. If I were one of those I would probably risk ONE blitzer or gutter or other player that's relatively fast and already has block or dodge and hope for a random ledgend worth having. If they get 5/7 skills that synergies relatively well (not super likely) they will have a cheap player they can redraft for several seasons and still be "Good". I wouldn't do this with my first or second or third player of that position but with the fourth? Why the hell not? Were all rolling dice here.


Last edited by Waagh on Dec 03, 2020 - 16:45; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 16:43 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem is, when a good coach faces another good coach, the difference in players' skill efficiency will matter.
The game has already the big dice variable, adding the not efficient random skills would be another variable that could make you lose or win.


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 03, 2020 - 16:49; edited 1 time in total
Waagh



Joined: Apr 13, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 16:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Sure. I agree with that. That's why random ledgend won't be THE meta. I'm just talking about the meta of random ledgends. shirley you agree if you're going to take a chance on one that a lineman isn't the best player to try it on... 45% chance after three skills to get block or wrestle I think someone said on a completely naked players.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 17:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Waagh wrote:
Naked dauntless isn't great because of the chance of double skulls, skulls both down, or the double both down results. Not to mention if the dauntless fails then you're making a 1d block or a -2d block. It is okay, I would just rather not have a skill at all than naked dauntless. Dauntless on a blitzer? Then I would be like okay that's fine. It is a short league by the book if we play to the letter of, which we will, he will only get 6 games per season (rulebook states that in league play each team plays the other twice) so in this short environment his line elf will likely never earn the SSP to buy block.


To be fair having Dauntless must be better than having NOTHING?!?

The fact that you can potentially block a ST4 or even ST5 player with only one assist with a 2D block are quite player effective when you need it. We are only talking about a 10k TV cost here.

Many times it is about managing that player numbers as much as anything else. A 2D block without Block skill is a pretty good block versus being hit back by a 2D block in general, we all do that for the most part.

It is not uncommon for a lineman to sit on a couple of SPP for a long time... so you basically a wasting the opportunity to get a skill, even a situational one. When that player get it's first MVP you have no idea if and when he will get any more if ever before the season is over or he has to retire due to some injury.

In my game it was usually that I gave a random skill if a Lineman got an MVP first.., but if the player had a casualty first and then got an MVP I did choose the skill.
Waagh



Joined: Apr 13, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 17:15 Reply with quote Back to top

No I don't think it is worth even 10k on a player without block. I would rather keep my TV as low as I can to get inducement money in a league environment. "A chance to block a st4 or 5 player with one assist" is rolling unnecessary dice. You have a better chance to just roll a d6 and doge away. Pro is definitely not worth 10k on a zombie and shadowing on a line elf is also worse than nothing. No, I will be using my lineman as line fodder and screens to protect my important players as intended not bloating them with "situational" skills.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 17:27 Reply with quote Back to top

i agree with Waagh. Dauntless is absolutely better than nothing.. but its worth much less than 10k.
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