FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 17:58

Personally I would probably start the season of with a few extra skilled skeleton who happen to get Wrestle/Block/DP and drop a Tomb Guardian from the starting roster and buy it after a few games, especially if rehire some of the Guardians. A skeleton with Block is basically a weak blitzer for very cheap cost.

Depending on how many players I will keep then keeping one Guardian with Guard is surely not a terrible idea. You should in general have cash to keep 3-5 players depending on how expensive they are.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 18:01

MattDakka wrote:

So, the BB2020 meta looks to me: skill up as fast as you can 1-2 key players on the team (in one Season if possible to keep low the agent fee), then keep them as long as you can, firing the fodder linos to save money for the re-hiring of the few good players.
I have this impression.

I'm of the opposite position... I probably want to transfer as many low value players as possible from season to season to get access to good skills on day one on more players. That is going to cause less turn-overs and can also possibly lead to more SPP.

In my opinion a team works better of their skills a a bit more spread out, at least my play-style work better that way.

To be honest I don't think it matters all that much as you probably can do it either way equally successful. I think it comes down to play-style.

I also think it depends heavily on the team you play... Chaos probably will want more consistent player at the start of a season than say a Pro Elf team who rely more on really good positional players.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 18:38

Unfortunately, all we have to go on is theory, and experience.

In this case, the theory is new, and there may be much that we have misjudged.

However, for experience, I do not have any evidence of yours. Whereas, I can analyze MattDakas experience, and see that it matches my own. In an environment where tv matters, where every skill must be carefully chosen for maximum impact - I can see that MattDaka has literally thousands of games played, and has a very good record. And that matches my own hundreds of games in such an environment.

I cannot know if you or us are right about the theory. But I absolutely must be persuaded by our experience over our lack of knowledge of yours, when it appears that experience is so directly relevant.

And the theory you have presented simply does not convince that our experience is irrelevant.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 18:55

I'm not sure I'm right, just making some speculations and theory. I look forward to test the new rules to have a more accurate idea.
Also, a major difference between CAB's and our opinions could be that he talks about a short private league environment and we talk about TV-MM environment.
One thing is playing a league for say 8 games, then end, see who won it and start a new league from scratch with brand new teams (not redrafted), perpetual MM is different.
Both of us could be right about our own different environments.
I was also thinking about this: is it better to keep 3 Tomb Guardians with MB or 3 Skeletons with random skills? Ok, Skeletons are cheaper, but MB has great return value due to increased removal chance, also, a Guardian has more chances to last longer on the pitch (due to higher AV and ST than Skeletons).

Last edited by MattDakka on %b %09, %2020 - %19:%Dec; edited 2 times in total

Lyracian

Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 18:57

MattDakka wrote:

So, the BB2020 meta looks to me: skill up as fast as you can 1-2 key players on the team (in one Season if possible to keep low the agent fee), then keep them as long as you can, firing the fodder linos to save money for the re-hiring of the few good players.
I have this impression.

About the same as mine. I was thinking most teams will be able to keep 3-4 key players and everything else will new, or at best have played one season and then be dead men walking as they will never get hired again.

If you are playing in a format/league with a cap, such as the 1350 planned for the Competitive division, then you reach a point where more gold is of no value. You will not be able to save it up for redrafting. There is also expensive mistakes that means you want to stay under 300kgp in Treasury.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 20:38

My experience are indeed derived mainly from shorter leagues and much more toned down TV on the teams where a single skill in a single player can be valued more than many skills on one player. But it also depend heavily on what type of team you talk about. I probably would be more keen of keeping a high valued Elven Union Blitzer than their Linemen who tend to just die or get injured often.

Block skill also tend to produce more casualties in a low Block skill environment and as teams are redrafted after 10-15 games Block skill can be even more lethal than MB to start with. Even Guard can produce more kills than MB (not on the Guard player themselves always) depending on play-style and skill of the coach as well. It is all about opportunity to block and how often you can actually get an opponent player on the ground.

I do understand that in a MM environment things can be different.

I would definitely keep a Skeleton with DP and most likely if they get Block skill maybe Wrestle as well, it would depend on what other players I like to keep as well. You have to recognise that players can become very expensive if you like to hire them more then one extra season, both because they have many skills and the extra agent fees they require.

I would definitely want at least one skilled Thrower and one skilled Blitzer. If I start the game with only the Guardians and buy a fourth one after the second (or third) game I could likely keep two skeletons, one Thrower, one Blitzer and one or two Guardians from previous season with Guard skill... I generally favour Guard as first skill on my Guardian and then a mix of MB and Stand Firm as secondary/third skill.

What money you have you are likely now going to spend on the games to buy Inducements... if you spend more money than the opponent they just get a roll on the Prayers to Nuffle table as compensation for every 50k you spend that they don't. There is little reason to save or horde money unless you are at the end of the season and you want to make sure to get to the redraft CAP.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 20:51

CAB wrote:

Block skill also tend to produce more casualties in a low Block skill environment and as teams are redrafted after 10-15 games Block skill can be even more lethal than MB to start with.

Yes, but looks like Block-spam teams (Dwarf, Chaos Dwarfs, Norse) will be common with these new rules.
Since the players' development-horizon is close, there is no incentive in playing teams requiring core skills.
If I'm vs Dwarfs, C.Dwarfs or Norse I guess Guardians or a Blitzer would be more useful than Skeletons (MB helps to break AV 9 and 7, while having Block would not knock Dwarf, Chaos Dwarfs and Norse down).
Also, MB helps to get casualties and skill the Guardians up. Guard helps to get 3d blocks as workaround for lack of Block on Guardians, instead, and helps to protect the Thrower.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 21:05

MattDakka wrote:

CAB wrote:

Block skill also tend to produce more casualties in a low Block skill environment and as teams are redrafted after 10-15 games Block skill can be even more lethal than MB to start with.

Yes, but looks like Block-spam teams (Dwarf, Chaos Dwarfs, Norse) will be common with these new rules.
Since the players' development-horizon is close, there is no incentive in playing teams requiring core skills.
If I'm vs Dwarfs, C.Dwarfs or Norse I guess Guardians or a Blitzer would be more useful than Skeletons (MB helps to break AV 9 and 7, while having Block would not knock Dwarf, Chaos Dwarfs and Norse down).
Also, MB helps to get casualties and skill the Guardians up. Guard helps to get 3d blocks as workaround for lack of Block on Guardians, instead, and helps to protect the Thrower.

If I'm in a League or environment where Block is very common for starting players then I would agree... I would just keep one DP skeleton in that case so I can Foul efficiently from the start.

I still would favour Guard over MB as first skill on Guardians but that is just what I prefer. I prefer the killing to be done by the Blitzers with MB and Tackle for example.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 21:14

Yes, I have seen coaches doing well with Guard first skill on Guardians, and other good coaches taking MB first and doing well too (or even mixing Guard and MB on 2 Guardians/2 Guardians).
And yes a Blitzer with MB Tackle is a player I would try to keep for the next season.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 09, 2020 - 21:22

MattDakka wrote:

Yes, I have seen coaches doing well with Guard first skill on Guardians, and other good coaches taking MB first and doing well too (or even mixing Guard and MB on 2 Guardians/2 Guardians).
And yes a Blitzer with MB Tackle is a player I would try to keep for the next season.

In my opinion the skills and in the order you choose them is probably more about preference and play-style rather than anything else.

Personally I prefer the more tactical element of Guard over the more random element of MB. Probably also why I like Stand Firm on my Guardians to as they make you control the pitch better.

Guard will also help me Foul better in BB2020... Wink

I think it all comes down to play-style in the end.

Rigolgm

Joined: Sep 14, 2018

Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 17:22

Yeah basically it's a range of good things for Tomb Kings this time, possibly cancelled out by the jump rules. Although at least MA is capped at 9 for players now.

Also I myself think Brawler is ideal for Tomb Guardians and good. It's doesn't just halve the chance of a turnover - it increases the chance of a push or knockdown a fair bit. Some are worried about how 'easy' it is to tie up Tomb Kings because of the new Break Tackle rule, but honestly a Tomb King with Brawler is only 120k and can fairly quickly squash most opponents.

Lasgalen

Joined: Jun 30, 2018

Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 10:41

well, it would be not smart from gw to release any major changing in Khemri (as well as High Elves and the others) without having produced minis first, it would give time to third parties to adapt and produce minis.
So, i wouldn't waste too much time on the currently available update to 2020 for khemri and the others, there might be changes.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 11:30

Regarding High Elves I think they would need the biggest change and not just be a higher armour value Elven Union team. I think there is are pretty large incentive to completely revamp all the Legends Teams.

I would like to see changes even to the already released teams to change up the Meta of the game and take better advantage of all the new skills.

sebco

Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 18:53

I personnaly hope they won't change these 6 teams (of legend) too much as I got the 6 painted teams and I don't want to have to change too many minis...

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CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 19:52

sebco wrote:

I personnaly hope they won't change these 6 teams (of legend) too much as I got the 6 painted teams and I don't want to have to change too many minis...

I have all of these teams (except Vampires) in painted miniatures as well, some in two versions. Hopefully I can mostly buy updated figures if some of the teams changes positional players so much you can't reuse the old ones.

Personally I would think a revamp of these teams is more important to be honest.