C0ddlefish
Joined: Sep 17, 2019
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 Posted:
Dec 27, 2020 - 16:18 |
 
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Presumably new challenges and primarily self-challenge.
Can they still win consistently with Tier 2 or Tier 3 teams (and for some that's irrespective of whether they are playing to try and win the Box Tournament or not).
It's like the Lewis Hamilton question - Greatest Formula One Driver of All time, or always had the fastest car?
The Greatest Coaches on here will be winning with any race consistently |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 27, 2020 - 16:31 |
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Assuming coaches' skill is the same, the tiers of the teams play a big role in winning or losing the game.
Actually, even when the coaches' skill is different, the tier is important.
Can a good coach overcome the tier disadvantage?
Yes, to a certain degree he can, but he's adding a disadvantage to his games which is not properly acknowledged by the CR gained/lost. Therefore the risk/reward is not worth the effort of playing a tier 3 team for a coach aiming to increase his CR.
If you don't understand that, you lack logic. |
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C0ddlefish
Joined: Sep 17, 2019
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Dec 27, 2020 - 16:51 |
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Completely understand that viewpoint and it's one many will share. However it's based upon a basic premise winning as many games as possible is the only thing that matters.
I refuse to believe that is the only mindset though. I refuse to believe some of the top coaches on here haven't at some point conciously decided to play a lesser race accepting a probably lower win rate for a new challenge, for variety, for self entertainment etc.. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 27, 2020 - 17:05 |
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Yes, but, when you play a tier 3 team vs a top tier 1 team of a noob and, after being diced and clearly losing, your opponent still wastes time fouling your players with the aim of making you concede, the "fun" aspect of playing a tier 3 could disappear.
While playing a tier 3 vs a close friend learning the game could be fun, playing a tier 3 vs a random silent sociopath online winning just because he used a tier 1 could not be as much fun.
Consider this possibility. |
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C0ddlefish
Joined: Sep 17, 2019
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Dec 27, 2020 - 17:17 |
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Yep, that absolutely could happen and probably does now.
If we go back to the original statement that 'all good coaches will only play top tier sides because the others won't have time to develop in a 15 games limit' then I think we can agree it will be very sad if that happens.
I'm optimistic it won't entirely be like that for the reasons I've said above. I guess we just have to see what happens when the new rule go live |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 27, 2020 - 17:24 |
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Let's put aside the high competitive and CR-macho aspect.
Let's talk about Vampires: they get "fun" when they have Blodge Pro.
It will be very hard to get 3 skills on Vampires (MVP is random now).
Maybe 1 or 2 will manage to get 2/3 skills, but in my opinion, there is not much fun if you can't do some special plays due to lack of skills.
Chaos and Nurgle shifted from high TV killers to low TV tier 2 teams.
They lack flavour (no random mutations) and lack core skills as well.
Where is the fun? I would have loved random mutations adding flavour to Chaos and Nurgle, but this will not happen, and on top of that they will lack the core skills to do their blocking game.
One thing is playing a weak team with the long-term goal of developing it to an acceptable level of gameplay, another thing is playing a weak team without even the reward of some development over time. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Dec 27, 2020 - 17:30 |
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I think that the new environment will be more diverse, as far as races are concerned. Simply because significant number of teams operate at high efficiency at mid TW level (1300-1500). whereas mostly just mutation teams and elves were considered tier1 at current high tw tournament scene.
On the other hand, there will be probably less diversity as far as meaningful iterations are concerned. Teams will look more different than no, but will operate more similarly than before. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Dec 27, 2020 - 17:32 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Chaos and Nurgle shifted from high TV killers to low TV tier 2 teams.
They lack flavour (no random mutations) |
I could envision random mutation skill selection for those teams after 3 seasons. Simply because that investment for 10k might be better for both short term (efficiency of addition), and potentially long term, as those players will be cheap to rebuy for another season. |
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Grasshugger17
Joined: Jun 29, 2020
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Dec 27, 2020 - 17:33 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Grasshugger17 wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | Well, some good coaches play lesser races due to Box Trophy or to fill the grid.
There will be less incentive to play Chaos, Nurgle and Vampires with BB2020 rules. |
For some players. For others, there's more incentive. You're only looking at it from your point of view. |
Interesting. What would that be? |
Well, for instance I'm looking forward to trying a chaos team with troll, possibly using some random mutations.
Cheers.
Edit: I replied to this before seeing the comment above about random mutations. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 27, 2020 - 17:41 |
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I think that Chaos and Nurgle could have got starting random mutations on Chosen/Bloaters. Flavour without being overpowered.
About keeping players for 3 seasons: looks like that most players will not be kept for longer than 2 seasons with the BB2020 rules.
You can keep 1 or 2 players with 3 skills, but hardly more than 2 for 3 seasons.
This is why I'd like starting random mutations on Chaos and Nurgle. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Dec 27, 2020 - 17:48 |
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I think you misunderstood my point. I dont think you keep players for 3 seasons. My point was that after 3 seasons, your team will be skilled enough to switch over to random skill route on many players. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 27, 2020 - 17:50 |
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AzraelEVA
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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Dec 28, 2020 - 15:26 |
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you could also get pro and the player is more reliable in everything |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 28, 2020 - 15:28 |
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But not reliable in the most common block actions. So, no. Either Block or Wrestle. |
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DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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Dec 28, 2020 - 16:18 |
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| bghandras wrote: | | I think that the new environment will be more diverse, as far as races are concerned. Simply because significant number of teams operate at high efficiency at mid TW level (1300-1500) |
I hope you're right bghandras but I fear the opposite will happen. I think we will see an awful lot of dwarf, and other bash teams with the rules changes. Leaping and break tackle have been badly nerfed, making those routes for breaking tight cages very risky, indeed probably unviable and not even worth trying in most instances. So it will be lots of grinding drives and fouling. At the same time they have unnecessarily nerfed teams like Chaos and Nurgle (see concurrent thread), who will now never really be able to develop into a good team - so we will see very few of those. Inexplicably, they have nerfed a lot of teams but not dwarfs, despite them already being pretty broken at low tv and suiting the new ruleset and league structure even better (they start with so many key skills and only need a bit of guard and mighty blow to be very good).
As well as less race diversity, I fear we will see less team build variation too. With the 1350 tv season end and rebuys, most teams will prioritise 1) a killer blitzer, 2) a ball handler, and 3) a fouler (with the overly pimped new fouling rules). After coaches have bought those they won't really have anything left to buy any interesting skills. Min-max tedium. We will see a few min-maxed races with very similar builds, mostly dwarfs. Gameplay will be lots of grinding, bash-and foul-fests with very little opportunity for aggressive defence (other than a big maul by bash teams).
It does not fill me with much enthusiasm to be honest and I can see a lot of people turning to Secret League instead for something more interesting at least in terms of team builds - although they will still be constrained sadly by the awful changes to passing, leaping, break tackle and fouling. |
Last edited by DrDeath on %b %28, %2020 - %20:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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