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Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 18:25 Reply with quote Back to top

After some games I thought to write my personal list of positive and negative aspects of BB2020.
Feel free to add your personal list and comments:

Positive sides

- weaker Kick-Off events (apart from Officious Ref);
- weaker Clawmb;
- harder passing for bash teams;
- no super high TV teams;
- 1ttd nerf;
- Leap nerf;
- multiple rrs per turn;
- Dedicated Fans don't count in the TV;
- Jump opens possibilities up;

Negative sides

- some better Throwers out of the box than in bb2016, but not as good as they should be, also, fragmentating the Passing skills was bad; Wildly Inaccurate seems too harsh, especially for dedicated Thrower-type players. Maybe it could have been a D3 instead of D6 for Wildly Inaccurate if it's a Thrower trying to pass the ball.
- less racial variety;
- boring team building (both in terms of skills to take and no more exciting level-up rolls);
- many games happen at low-mid TV, then Season Redraft;
- random MVP: would be ok without Season Redraft, but with Season Redraft MVP nomination would have been better. Team such as Vampires, Lizardmen, Chaos or even Snotlings really need to get the MVP on the important players;
- trickier level-up system for no real gain;

Positive-negative sides

- No more stat freaks.
While I don't like to play "Hero Bowl", on the other hand I found that stat boosts added some variety to the rosters. Even mirror matches could feature very different player types.
Capping the MA to 9 was indeed positive, but I think they could have kept the old stat up system, with 2 simple changes:

1) capping the stat boosts to max +1 per each characteristic (max MA 9);
2) increasing the TV cost of each stat boost, for example:

+AV: 20 TV; +MA: 40 TV; +AG: 60 TV; +ST 80 TV

Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 21, 2021 - 00:22; edited 6 times in total

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Are these lists any different to the ones you posted before you had played a game?

[SL]2020 Rookie Rumble - New teams ONLY - Always recruiting!

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't remember, but now I can talk after direct experience of the new rules.
For example, I actually tried some BB2020 passes and they were disappointing.
Funnily, my Goblin and Blitzer had more success than my Thrower with Cannoneer.

Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 14, 2021 - 20:20; edited 1 time in total

Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

+st on my skink costed me +80 tv Smile so that is not to far off what you suggested Smile

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 20:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Not a coincidence, I started from the cost of +ST of the BB2020 rules and then added the other costs by decreasing steps of 20 TV.
So far I have played only Orcs and Imperial Nobility, I'd like to know the impressions of coaches who played other races.

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 12:07 Reply with quote Back to top

In my opinion all of the negative remarks are mostly about very subjective opinions about what you want Blood Bowl to be rather than being actual negative thing in and off themselves. Not saying they are necessarily wrong though...

The only thing I would agree with is the Wildly Inaccurate rule which is just a weird rule which I think they implemented in a bad way.

Boring team development is a personal opinion I don't share for example, I think it is more interesting... especially for seasons with low number of games as is mostly the case with local board-game leagues (for which the game rules are written).

Random MVP is really important in the new rules as you are meant to spread the SPP out so random skills become more relevant, especially as most seasons are perhaps around ten games or so.

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 12:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Assuming a short league that means boredom in terms of playable races.
Who would play Vampires with 10 game-league? Or Chaos? or Nurgle?
The shorter the league is, the narrower the range of playable races gets (assuming coaches of that league are competitive guys and not casual, for fun ones).
Also, let's assume everybody takes only random skills, Dwarfs, Norse, Orcs, Humans, Amazons can afford to take random, while a Lizardman or Vampire team can't afford to do the same, because they lack too many core skills and they don't have enough games to mess around with not efficient skills with the hope of rolling the right ones. That could work in a perpetual league, but not in a short 10-games league.
Random skills are not more relevant. I'm not going to randomize a skill on an Orc lino if I don't have enough gold to cycle him if the random skill sucks and in a 10-game league I don't think I can afford to cycle many players.
Also, consider this: if a Lino gets 3 MVPs (true story) in a league of 10 games basically you wasted 3 MVPs. The same goes if the MVP is randomized on a dead/crippled player. That brings an extra luck factor which could affect the roster's efficiency. Imagine 2 Orc teams (identical rosters) in the same 10-game league.
Team A gets 3 MVPs on 3 different blitzers, team B gets 3 MVPs on a Lino. Team B is at a disadvantage in terms of team building.
With the MVP nomination the MVP was never wasted and always well-spread.

Short league = MVP should be always nominated.
Long/perpetual league = MVP could be randomized because over time the distribution improves.

Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 16, 2021 - 12:31; edited 1 time in total

Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 12:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I think re the racial spreads, I think alot of people are giving Black Orcs and Nobility a go (I know I am!).

I did play one goblin coach, and they have the worst NAF record under 2020, so there are still people experimenting.

Also I think its a bit of a pickers environment at the moment with Gamefinder and until the Competitive Black Box is up and running, we wont see much diversity.

In my own experience, I would agree with the MVP should be back to 2016 rules (one of 3). As for passing, I think the whole concept is that the specialist thrower is supposed to be the thrower and everyone else is pot luck.

I have taken a two thrower / 1 catcher build for Elf Union with mixed results but I am yet to Wildly Innacurate yet.

I do like the new deflection rules and had a troll deflect a bomb with a natural 6 yesterday which was a highlight.

Throwing is now specialised for specialised throwers and those without throwers are supposed to play the running game...

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 12:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Orc Throwers are specialist passers but if you try to pass with Cannoneer they are not worth their TV.
Goblins and Blitzers, since you can use multiple rrs per turn, are better to move the ball (in terms of TV cost/effect).
Goblin doesn't even have Animosity, so no risk to fail it during Pass/Hand Off.

I like the idea that specialist passers are better, the problem is that not all the specialist passers are as good at passing compared to players of the same team.
Would have been nice to have Accurate and Cannoneer merged into a single skill or at least cheaper, 10 TV each if you have P access.
As the rules currently are, either your Thrower is good out of the Box (HE, Human, Skaven, Elven Throwers) or, if he is not, you don't even bother to take Passing skills on him at all.
Too hard and expensive (in terms of TV and SPPs) to develop a bad starting Thrower.
Orcs would have been better with just a MA 6 Runner with Sure Hands. The Orc Thrower still sucks.

Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 16, 2021 - 12:42; edited 2 times in total

Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 12:40 Reply with quote Back to top

the one thing i found "unfair" on the new kick off events was the sweltering heat. before would help even the field if the match had gone harsh on one team as the oponent would have to roll more dice and potentially have more people off compared to you. now if things have gone harsh and the heat is a 3, then you are going 5 vs 9 and that is truly harsh.

other than that the game is still the same.

I would add the jump as a new good adition to the rules. gives some options to agility teams.

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 12:45 Reply with quote Back to top

About the Heat: on average it's true that Heat helped to "even the field", but it was true the opposite too.
I remember many games where I was terribly outnumbered and the Heat just made things worse.
It's not guaranteed that if a team has more players and rolls more Heat tests then there will be more exhausted players.
It could be the reverse, that the outnumbered team loses more players than the outnumbering team and the game gets impossibile to play.

Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Pitch Invasion seems harsher, in that it definitely only affect one team now.

My only 2020 game so far, we have 5 Vs 4 at a kick off in in turn 14. Suddenly it's 2 Vs 4. Obviously that's quite an extreme example but still seems rough

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 14:56 Reply with quote Back to top

If you have few players it's harsher, if you have 10-11 is better.
Also, the FAME modifier in the old pitch invasion made it harsher than now.
Worst scenario now is having 3 players Stunned, 2 on average.
With old Pitch Invasion and opposing +1 FAME modifier to the D6 roll you had on average 3 Stunned players (assuming 11-player team).

Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 16, 2021 - 15:47; edited 2 times in total

Joined: May 08, 2019

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 15:01 Reply with quote Back to top

On the skills and redraft I think that some of this has missed the point. Cycling players isn’t sensible given the short seasons unless you’ve got 300k or more in treasury and are risking an motor incident on expensive mistakes.

random skills and MVPs.
These together do open up Somme team-building options. Previously with nominating 3 for MVP it could take some teams ages for a Lineman to gain a level. One MVP allows you to take a random primary skill and a second MVP allows a second random primary. This only costs 10k team value and plays into the redraft rules and short seasons. See below

Redraft rules
What people seem to be forgetting is that you add your Treasury to your redraft amount. The formula is 1000k + TREASURY + 20k * games played + 20k * league wins + 10k * league draws.
This means that the more you cycle players the less you have to redraft. Some money will need to be spent naturally to develop your team but saving up to 295k can be done without risking more 30k on expensive mistakes.

If you save your treasury that adds a significant amount to your redrafting potential and so cycling players mid season is discouraged.

While there’s always a chance you’ll get a bad skill on a random skill up its better to hold on to that player and release them in the redraft than it is to spend your money, unless you have 300k or more in the Treasury. That allows you to keep more of the players who have good random skills.

This also has the advantage that while you thought in theory that skill X was bad using it in games may open up possibilities that you haven’t considered. You may still not choose the skill when given a choice but for 10k it could be worthwhile.

I’m not suggesting that you take random skills on everyone and I don’t think it’s worthwhile on positional that gain SPP easily.

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 15:06 Reply with quote Back to top

But you don't want to get skills on Linemen, unless they have good Skill access (for example, Dwarf Blockers, and still I would not randomize them, in that case).
You want the SPPS on the positionals with good Skill access. Linemen are just fodder, most of times.
If a Lino has enough SPPs to get a random skill, first I check if I have enough gold to cycle him. If yes, I randomize the skill, otherwise I simply don't take the skill to keep him cheap.
Every 10 TV matters.
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