FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Garion26

Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 20:34

I think where it has made most sense to me is players like Elf blitzers and catchers where they already come with a good stat line and skills (and they are my main scorer). Blodge and then save for a stat makes a lot of sense. Move, agility maybe strength (expensive) make sense.

I hadn't considered BeanBelly's example of an orc blitzer before but same idea reasonable starting stats and skills add sure hands (on an orc team he is less of a target and less likely to be your designated blitzer) and then stats. I'd guess agility isn't bad on that guy either.

Someone who comes with no survival skills at all probably wants the things that will keep them alive first.

Same idea for me behind random skills - they make a lot of sense on low armor linemen who may not live long enough to get 6/12 SPP

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 20:47

The problem of random skills on low armour linemen is that many skills are not efficient or useful.
If a lineman is cheap you can just fire him if you don't like the random skill (Zombies, Hobgoblins, Skeletons, Thralls etc.), but in case of expensive linemen, such as Wood Elf and Elven Union ones, you just risk to bloat the team for no gain because you can't afford to fire and replace them easily and a bench is necessary.
The old skill system was better. Moreover, you don't want the SPPs on linemen (unless they are good/have a good skill access, such as Dwarf Longbeards), you want the SPPs on positionals.

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 21:56

MattDakka wrote:

At first I thought that 15 games could have been perfect, because it matches the Trophy run, but I'm starting to think that it could be too long, bash teams with almost granted MA 8 ball carriers are better than they should be.

Ok, I need clarity on this point. So if 15 games is to long a span of games before redraft. What is the TV base for the redraft? how may games? 10 games?

Are we actually talking that Chaos Chosen teams with a MA 8 player, NUFFLE forbid 2 of them, are game breaking? In a 15 game season...Has it really come to this?

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:02

MattDakka wrote:

Moreover, you don't want the SPPs on linemen (unless they are good/have a good skill access, such as Dwarf Longbeards), you want the SPPs on positionals.

Well I disagree.. On a human team you wanted all your lineman, in a ideal world that never actually happens, to have 2 skills. Block/Fend or Block/DP. That made Human linemen very functional, yes, it inflates your TV BUT they are very disruptive and positive for the team.

Yet, what am I talking about, I must be drunk up at work, BB2020 would never allow a Human team on a TV1300 reset ever have Linemen with 2 skills.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:12

PainState wrote:

Ok, I need clarity on this point. So if 15 games is to long a span of games before redraft. What is the TV base for the redraft? how may games? 10 games?

I guess you are confused or just misunderstood my point.

This is the Season Re-Draft Christer will do:

- 15 games per season
- Re-drafting budget of 1,000k + 10k per game + 10k per win + 5k per tie + team treasury
- Re-drafting hard cap of 1,350k

15 games, 1350k Re-Draft budget.

My concern about 15-game Season is that it could be too long because bash teams can quite easily get a +2 MA ball carrier within 15 games. If the Re-Draft happened at 10 games, for example, a ball carrier could have got just +1 MA, had to be re-hired for the next Season, and would be more expensive to keep a +2 MA ball carrier (because the shorter a Season is, the more often you have to re-hire a player).

PainState wrote:

Are we actually talking that Chaos Chosen teams with a MA 8 player, NUFFLE forbid 2 of them, are game breaking? In a 15 game season...Has it really come to this?

Chaos Chosen roster is weak in this ruleset, I was thinking of teams such as Dwarfs and Orcs, they already start with core skills and they don't need to waste SPPs just to get Block or Sure Hands, unlike Chaos Chosen.

PainState wrote:

Well I disagree.. On a human team you wanted all your lineman, in a ideal world that never actually happens, to have 2 skills. Block/Fend or Block/DP. That made Human linemen very functional, yes, it inflates your TV BUT they are very disruptive and positive for the team.

The issue is that your Human Linemen can't pick their skills.
Block and DP at 10k each are ok, but if you don't get Block (or Wrestle) or any of the most useful skills your Human Linemen are bloaty, not to mention they wasted the SPPs (and a skill slot) for a so-so or bad skill such as Fend or Shadowing.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:16

MattDakka wrote:

Chaos Chosen roster is weak in this ruleset, I was thinking of teams such as Dwarfs and Orcs, they already start with core skills and they don't need to waste SPPs just to get Block or Sure Hands, unlike Chaos Chosen.

Ok, fine..lets think this out. So if we redraft at 1350 base tv and we are concerned about dwarfs and orcs..and "bash" teams dont really find their stride until TV ABOVE the TV reset you are fine with a C/B with basically just Orcs/Dwarfs and stupid coaches like me running Human?

At its essence this is a YES/NO question, Iam not trying to troll you.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:18

I'm fine only with a totally blind Matchmaking (based on pairing by close TVs, though) and with some racial variety.
Facing Orcs and Dwarfs over and over again it's really boring (no matter the outcome of the match).
I can play just Orcs and Dwarfs myself but it's not what I want from a game with 28 different rosters.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:22

MattDakka wrote:

I'm fine only with a totally blind Matchmaking and with some racial variety.
Facing Orcs and Dwarfs over and over again it's really boring (no matter the outcome of the match).
I can play just Orcs and Dwarfs myself but it's not what I want from a game with 27 different rosters.

Iam also fine with a totally "blind" matchmaking in B and would agree to the idea that C/B just merge into C with blind matchmaking. MY #1 Issue though would be to limit TV. Make a totally open div/league with no limits, no hold barred, you do what you want to do inside this new C enviroment.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:24

I'm not Christer, you should ask him. I can tell you that this site has a too small userbase to make more than 1 Competitive division and that big TV gaps are not liked by most people (including me).

Kondor

Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:28

PainState wrote:

MattDakka wrote:

Chaos Chosen roster is weak in this ruleset, I was thinking of teams such as Dwarfs and Orcs, they already start with core skills and they don't need to waste SPPs just to get Block or Sure Hands, unlike Chaos Chosen.

Ok, fine..lets think this out. So if we redraft at 1350 base tv and we are concerned about dwarfs and orcs..and "bash" teams dont really find their stride until TV ABOVE the TV reset you are fine with a C/B with basically just Orcs/Dwarfs and stupid coaches like me running Human?

At its essence this is a YES/NO question, Iam not trying to troll you.

Hey PainState

I'm with you. I love the big teams too. A couple changes to BB2020. Humans are considered a top team. Sure they still struggle against Orcs and Dwarfs, but my guess is that they are going to do MUCH better in 2020 and better than you think. Figure your human linemen gets 6 SPP they pick up block. After that they should probably take random general skills to make them pretty cool players.

Your catchers are cheaper. Get them a couple of quick skills. 1 Blodger and one DP/Sneaky Git.

Blitzers are blitzers. Either skill them as normal or take a chance and roll random strength skills. Doing that, and I think at 46 SPP you will have a legend.

Human throwers are as good at throwing the ball as elves now.

With all that, humans are in a good place now. With random skills, 1350 TV is probably the equivalent of 1500 in the last edition.

Humans are cheap enough that after 15 games, I think you will be able to rehire all of your players that have skilled.

Having said all of that, I despise the idea of seasons and hope it takes 15 years to implement on Fumbbl.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:33

As an aside, I would not take Block/Wrestle at 6 SPPs on Human Linemen, because in an environment where you could face, for example, an Undead or Necro team with Zombies who randomized Block/Wrestle (they are cheap, so you can randomize and keep those with Block/Wrestle/Dirty Player) having Human Linemen with 20 TV Block or Wrestle is a disadvantage. Sure, a single Human Lineman will not make a big difference, but if you have 2-3 Linemen with TV 20 Block vs 2-3 Zombies with randomized Block skills you will be at a disadvantage.

Last edited by MattDakka on %b %25, %2022 - %22:%Apr; edited 1 time in total

Garion26

Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:34

MattDakka wrote:

The problem of random skills on low armour linemen is that many skills are not efficient or useful.
If a lineman is cheap you can just fire him if you don't like the random skill (Zombies, Hobgoblins, Skeletons, Thralls etc.), but in case of expensive linemen, such as Wood Elf and Elven Union ones, you just risk to bloat the team for no gain because you can't afford to fire and replace them easily and a bench is necessary.
The old skill system was better. Moreover, you don't want the SPPs on linemen (unless they are good/have a good skill access, such as Dwarf Longbeards), you want the SPPs on positionals.

Of course you don't want SPP to end up on linemen.
But if you end up with a TD or an MVP on a lineman for roughly half the cost of SPP and TV you can get a skill.
Given that BB 2020 games on FUMBBL are mostly in C - TV efficiency has something to go for it.

Or someone gets two lucky casualties over the course of the games.

I agree really expensive linemen doesn't make that much sense. At 60K for elf union I personally don't mind it. Take dodge if I'm at or close to 6SPP, but almost everything on general except shadowing, strip ball and sure hands is IMO helpful on the 40-50K linemen and I like it on elf union (overjoyed to get DP or kick, wrestle, block, fend, okay with dauntless, frenzy, tackle)

Particularly for the low armor guys who get line of scrimmage duty there is a pretty significant turnover of bodies something useless like shadowing often gets LOS duty Smile

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:40

Dodge on Elven Linemen is not that good, because Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs are super common in this ruleset (due to a combination of Clawmb nerf, random MVP and Season Re-Draft factors). The best skills on Elven Linemen are Block, Wrestle, Kick and Dirty Player (although you need a bench to use Dirty Player).
Fend as single skill on a Linelf is not good either. Dauntless has nice cost/effect potential but without Block/Wrestle you refrain from using it or, if you do it, you risk a turnover. Frenzy, I took it, but without Block/Wrestle it's risky to use, so you don't use it a lot. Tackle without Block/Wrestle first is risky to use.
I tried, as experiment, to take random skills on my EU linelves, it didn't work.
It's better just to keep them cheap and use them as disposable fodder.
It would have been better to randomize 2 skills at 3 SPPS and choose one of them, or, alternatively, randomizing just 1 skill, but refusing it if you didn't like it, keeping the 3 SPPs.

Kondor

Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:47

MattDakka wrote:

Dodge on Elven Linemen is not that good, because Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs are super common in this ruleset (due to a combination of Clawmb nerf, random MVP and Season Re-Draft factors). The best skills on Elven Linemen are Block, Wrestle, Kick and Dirty Player (although you need a bench to use Dirty Player).
Fend as single skill on a Linelf is not good either. Dauntless has nice cost/effect potential but without Block/Wrestle you refrain from using it or, if you do it, you risk a turnover. Frenzy, I took it, but without Block/Wrestle it's risky to use, so you don't use it a lot. Tackle without Block/Wrestle first is risky to use.
I tried, as experiment, to take random skills on my EU linelves, it didn't work.
It's better just to keep them cheap and use them as disposable fodder.

Ahhh Matt,

Don't you know that most low AV coaches avoid anything with a couple tacklers? Who cares how prevalent Dwarfs, CDs, and Orcs are if you choose not to play them.

When we get a scheduler it will go back to having a ton of CDs and Dwarfs.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 25, 2022 - 22:48

On the GF there is already a ton of CDs and Dwarfs, no need to get a scheduler! Razz