Samaranthae
Joined: Aug 30, 2006
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 Posted:
Jul 07, 2022 - 16:43 |
 
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No ageing. thats a pity. I think i'd prefer it to agent fees.
Something like Roll 2d6+1 for every season past the first on the casualty table for each player during offseason (so first season 10-11-12 get a niggle)
If you roll dead, the player retires... or maybe they died.
Then as the offseason remove any MNG to your team.
I would have preferred them improve the ageing rather than reinvent the wheel |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jul 07, 2022 - 16:46 |
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Imho and from my particular perspective, for a perpetual league a hard TV cap is better than Ageing, because it keeps in check the TV after every game, not after an X amount of games like the Season Re-Draft. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Jul 07, 2022 - 16:58 |
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Hey now guys…. IAM 100% against the old system of aging of players. So I don’t want to hear guys talking behind my back that painstate is on some “roll†to bring back aging.
You may continue. |
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Garion26
Joined: Nov 28, 2021
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Jul 07, 2022 - 18:15 |
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| PainState wrote: | Hey now guys…. IAM 100% against the old system of aging of players. So I don’t want to hear guys talking behind my back that painstate is on some “roll†to bring back aging.
You may continue. |
Oh so Painstate is lobbying GW and Christer hard to introduce aging rules. Just want to make sure I've heard the rumor correctly while spreading it further. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 07, 2022 - 18:37 |
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haha, he already won, seasons is just ageing. I blame Painstate  |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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Jul 08, 2022 - 02:23 |
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Comparing Leagues:
I run a TT league in Sydney. We have 20 coaches with a 6 game season. Race mix is very varied, we have two Vamp teams and two Lizard teams and two Norse (LoL roster) and 12 other races. We are going by the book of 1,300k TV and 20k Agent fees. We are into the 5th round of 6 games and when I look at the spread of teams, pretty much all teams will be re-drafting at the cap limit. Currently our highest TV is 1430k (Khorne after 5 games) and we have a Snotling and a Goblin team at the low end of TV.
The Goblin coach has already said he will be starting a new team (he hasnt had fun) and one of the Vamp coaches has already said he's been frustrated by the Vamps and will pick a new team.
We have a wait list and expect the league to add 3-4 coaches in Season 2 and unless we have drop outs, I would presume most teams will re-draft to simply go thru the process to see how it works.
League structure is complex. 20 teams with 5 divisions of 4 teams. This gives each team 3 games. Divisional winners and 3 best wildcards went into a 8 team KO format. Losers play on to ensure they get 3 more games but we will have a Final for the Championship. One of the two Norse teams is in the final and the other semi final to play is Chaos Chosen vs Necro.
That winning Norse coach intends to re-draft into the new BB2020 Norse roster (i.e. keep Berserkers and Linos and drop Thrower/Catcher for rookie Valkyries etc)
The non-playoff coaches (12 teams) play a 3 game Swiss with Divisional points carrying through. Winner of that Swiss system will get a prize.
Prizes are cash on top of the TV Cap for re-drafting and a free (TV exempt) re-roll for the next season. This will promote re-drafting for some guys rather than rookie teams.
We're yet to go through the Re-Draft. I think it will work very well. Apart from the prize money bonus, most teams will re-draft to the 1300k Cap and will be at that 1200 - 1300k TV depending on how many agents fees. I feel Stunty teams will keep their entire teams and hence this promotes Block big guys (the Snotling team just missed a wild card and will do very well in Season 2).
I can really see how GW have put this rule set in place for the "short league" type set up. I really admire JanMattys league of having gotten through 3 seasons of 16 games but I feel that in todays modern society thats the exception to the norm.
We play one game every 3 weeks and even then people didnt sign up due to real life constraints and we have had a couple of close calls re games not getting played as is.
I advertised my league as "short, punchy, 6 game seasons with prizes for two different competitions - the playoffs and the consolation Swiss system.
As an aside, totally unrelated, we run the league on tourplay.net and their app. An awesome system! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jul 08, 2022 - 11:46 |
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Playing Vamps with a 6 game Season?! No wonder that guy got frustrated. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Jul 08, 2022 - 12:59 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Personally, I wouldn't give the worst teams less money. |
I didn't reply to this, so here it is: you are right and we though about it. But then we realised that those who advance to the playoffs (first to fourth) are much more likely to burn their treasure in the semifinals/final, because they want the title.
The "worst teams" (fifth to last) will play two friendly games instead, and they are very likely to just keep their treasure for the next season.
So really, the 30k prize for the winner and the 10k prize for the runner up are more of a token compensation than anything else. I am coaching undead and I am sitting on a 250k treasure before the final. And so is our Chaos, with one last friendly match to go. Well, I'm pretty sure I'll get a wizard and a bribe for the final (or two bribes and a babe). While he won't spend anything at all. So in the end the redraft will be much easier for him than for me, even if I win and get my 30k prize.  |
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Lyracian
Joined: Oct 29, 2015
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Jul 08, 2022 - 13:58 |
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| ClayInfinity wrote: | Comparing Leagues:
As an aside, totally unrelated, we run the league on tourplay.net and their app. An awesome system! |
We use it as well. People can see it here if they want to look - https://tourplay.net/en/blood-bowl/leicester-blood-bowl-league---season-9/classifications
We have about 35 active coaches. Started Season 8 with the new Second Season rules and, I think, about half the people elidable to redraft did so. We have quite a few new coaches for Season 9.
Redraft was capped at 1300 and most teams ended up with 3-4 players rehired at 1200-1250 TV.
| MattDakka wrote: | | Imho and from my particular perspective, for a perpetual league a hard TV cap is better than Ageing, because it keeps in check the TV after every game, not after an X amount of games like the Season Re-Draft. |
Is that not just stunting progression? Seems almost like tournament play but with the risk you can get players killed.
For me part of the fun of a league is having some progression and managing resources. The redraft is a hard reset at the end, or possibly the beginning, depending on how you look at it. This stops a few teams getting too far ahead of others.
| JanMattys wrote: | are much more likely to burn their treasure in the semifinals/final, because they want the title.
The "worst teams" (fifth to last) will play two friendly games instead, and they are very likely to just keep their treasure for the next season.
So really, the 30k prize for the winner and the 10k prize for the runner up are more of a token compensation than anything else. |
This was mentioned in another topic. Teams could be playing for the title or to hoard cash thinking they will have a better shot next time around if they start with a better team.
If you got MNG on the Mummy and best Ghoul in the semi a coach may decide to not spent all the cash on what could be seen as a low-odds play.
That was why some people disliked the idea of prizes. I do agree though that overall prize money is more a compensation for not having much in your treasury unlike teams that are not competing for the prizes. |
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Nuffle wills it.
Lyracian. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jul 08, 2022 - 14:56 |
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| Lyracian wrote: |
| MattDakka wrote: | | Imho and from my particular perspective, for a perpetual league a hard TV cap is better than Ageing, because it keeps in check the TV after every game, not after an X amount of games like the Season Re-Draft. |
Is that not just stunting progression? Seems almost like tournament play but with the risk you can get players killed. |
Tournament play has no progression, typically. That means that your starting TV is the same in every game.
With hard cap I mean putting, for example, a max TV value of 1600 (it could be 1700 or 1800, ideally the Commissioner should consider ALL the races of the league and adopt a TV cap fitting the different races, if the teams are all strong starting tier 1 then the TV cap should be low-mid TV, while if there are Vampires, Chaos and Nurgle the TV cap should be a bit higher to give decent chances to these races as well). Teams start at TV 1000 and can grow up to 1600, but they can't exceed it. If their TV is higher than 1600 after a game they have to drop something/fire some players to get back to 1600 before playing the next game. It's simple, fast and effective.
Progression is not stunted as much and the cap would allow to play Vampires, Chaos, Nurgle a bit better than with Season Re-Draft, because these teams need some skills to be competitive.
Also, Season Re-Draft doesn't ensure that a team can't get too high during the Season, while a hard cap does that EVERY game.
Just after a Season Re-Draft a team is pushed back to TV 1350, then it can grow again, but if you play Vampires, being pushed back is very bad.
With hard cap you could have, in theory, your Vampires always playing at TV 1600 or so. They would not be pushed to 1350 and then have to grow again. Especially considering that without MVP nomination it's harder to skill them up. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 08, 2022 - 18:12 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Personally, I wouldn't give the worst teams less money. |
I didn't reply to this, so here it is: you are right and we though about it. But then we realised that those who advance to the playoffs (first to fourth) are much more likely to burn their treasure in the semifinals/final, because they want the title.
The "worst teams" (fifth to last) will play two friendly games instead, and they are very likely to just keep their treasure for the next season.
So really, the 30k prize for the winner and the 10k prize for the runner up are more of a token compensation than anything else. I am coaching undead and I am sitting on a 250k treasure before the final. And so is our Chaos, with one last friendly match to go. Well, I'm pretty sure I'll get a wizard and a bribe for the final (or two bribes and a babe). While he won't spend anything at all. So in the end the redraft will be much easier for him than for me, even if I win and get my 30k prize. |
A little gimping of the finalists is all fair in the name of parity IMO. 
Though, I'm also inclined to ignore all of that nonsense and just give everyone the same re-draft money.
That is if I was going to force re-draft at all. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Jul 08, 2022 - 20:33 |
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I agree with Matt that a hard TV cap is the best way to stop run away TV in a league.
The other side of that coin is to redraft after X games and drag all the teams to the low point of TV
Now GW and Fumbbl have decided they like to drag everyone to the low point of TV.
Iam fine with that and, I cant believe I'm saying it, I think Matt is spot on that if the concern is high TV then cap the TV.
Redraft is the solution to the issues Christer has stated how he wants to solve the issues in C BUT redraft is not the ideal way to limit TV in C.
I still like the idea of redraft in C. My hang up is the agent fee now and a free season.I have given up talking about redraft floors and season lengths. The wet blanket know as Kodah has convinced me I'm spitting into a head wind.
I still think there is hope in C to set the agent fees at 30+ games.
Now if you do not give out gold to the winner of a tournament, what do you give them? A pat on the back and a Jolley good show and then move on? |
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Lyracian
Joined: Oct 29, 2015
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Jul 08, 2022 - 20:50 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
Just after a Season Re-Draft a team is pushed back to TV 1350, then it can grow again, but if you play Vampires, being pushed back is very bad.
With hard cap you could have, in theory, your Vampires always playing at TV 1600 or so. They would not be pushed to 1350 and then have to grow again. Especially considering that without MVP nomination it's harder to skill them up. |
I know what a hard cap is; I just am not in favour of it. I would much rather see the Vampire, or Dwarfs, pushed back to 1250 TV with 5 players rehired than to get to sit with the same 12 players at 1600 and just spending Treasury every game to keep themselves up there.
| PainState wrote: | The other side of that coin is to redraft after X games and drag all the teams to the low point of TV
Now GW and Fumbbl have decided they like to drag everyone to the low point of TV. |
They are not the only ones.
Worked well for our TT League.
| PainState wrote: | | Iam fine with that |
Good, glad to hear it.
| PainState wrote: | | C BUT redraft is not the ideal way to limit TV in C. |
I have yet to see a convincing argument as to why not?
| PainState wrote: | | I still think there is hope in C to set the agent fees at 30+ games. |
I do not think anyone important is listening but 0, 1 or 2 seasons for Agency Fees does not really bother me. It gives some teams a small boost but the hard cap of 1350 kgp still limits the amount of players redrafted teams can keep.
| PainState wrote: | | Now if you do not give out gold to the winner of a tournament, what do you give them? A pat on the back and a Jolley good show and then move on? |
SPP? A free* Advance? A virtual trophy and a kick in the teeth? On the other hand they may need cash to make 1350 at the end of the tournament. Maybe you just give them a redraft boost so they always hit the cap.
*in SPP not player value |
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Nuffle wills it.
Lyracian. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Jul 08, 2022 - 20:51 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Now if you do not give out gold to the winner of a tournament, what do you give them? A pat on the back and a Jolley good show and then move on? |
Well, in real life you can give them... trophies? 
So I guess you could hand out virtual ones. It's amazing what people would do for a little recognition  |
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Last edited by JanMattys on %b %08, %2022 - %20:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jul 08, 2022 - 20:53 |
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As an aside, gathering some data about the peak performance win rate % of every race would be useful to set the right TV cap.
It should be in the 1500-1900 range, I guess.
About Apo being used to heal Niggled players: without Season Re-Draft, the solution is allowing to use the Apo to heal the Niggled players after an X amount of games.
That way even without Season Re-Draft there still is the chance to use Niggled players. |
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