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eranor



Joined: Sep 08, 2021

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 12:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I was spectating a game where coach A was complaining that coach B fouled in T16, because "there is no technical advantage to it, you just did it to ruin my team". It seems to me that there are plenty of reasons to foul at T16.

1. It's fun (this is a game after all).
2. It has a clear in universe explanation for the players (you killed my team mate, I foul you).
3. ...even tactically, it serves as a deterrent against the other coach overexposing their best blitzer in their turn 15 (aka, if you don't foul in T16 you're just accepting that the other coach blitzes as they like in T15).

What are folks opinions on this? Are there any rules on this site saying that T16 fouls are wrong?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 12:50 Reply with quote Back to top

4. you could face that team again. The player you don't foul today could be the player who defeats your team tomorrow.

5. without Season Re-Draft the teams grow more than they should, hence fouling helps to keep the teams in check a little.

6. a fouled player could be killed and raised/infected to join the opponent team for free.

There is no site rule forbidding to foul on turn 16. So, it's perfectly legal and allowed.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 13:24 Reply with quote Back to top

1. means YOU have fun. What constitutes fun for your opponent is not yours to say. To be honest, there's people I'd foul t16 because we both have a laugh about it. But if I knew my opponent resented it, I wouldn't do it because you know, gaming is a social behaviour first and foremost.

2. justifying a behaviour because it makes sense fluff wise is stupid.

3. That might be. But then again: in an open environment who really cares / takes note of your behaviour? If you feel like building a ruthless reputation just to gain a tiny advantage... well, I guess that's up to you.

4. Yeah... no. The largest gaming environment is TV-paired. So it doesn't make any difference.

5. True.

6. Of course. Undead and Nurgle get a free pass.



T16 fouling is legal. It is also allowed. It is also a sensitive topic and different coaches have different views about it. Personally, I value not-pissing off people higher than the adrenaline shot of killing their player when I gain nothing out of it.
But to each his own.

As a side note: when the vast majority of games on this site were arranged in chat or gamefinder, having a reputation for not being unpleasant went a LONG way in finding games. So there was that: if you were a totally ruthelss coach, you paid for it in time spent waiting for a match.
It also created rivalries, and coaches with similar views attracted each other. It worked for everybody, in a strange kind of way.
I liked it. It gave people a reason for being nice, or for being "evil". In short, it gave people a reason for developing a character.

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MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 13:44 Reply with quote Back to top

No reason not to foul turn 16 if you dont score.

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badger89



Joined: Jun 03, 2014

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 14:31 Reply with quote Back to top

got to think of it like this it's blitz on the floor and hitting the player without block dice haha

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 14:36 Reply with quote Back to top

4. The environment is TV-matched and some teams tend to hover at a certain TV. I play a lot in the Box and I often face the same teams. With thousands of teams it would be very unlikely to find again the same team, but the site has not many users and the Box is an even smaller subset, so, you can find the same team quite often, especially at high TV, because there are not many high TV teams.
proff70



Joined: Feb 25, 2016

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 14:55 Reply with quote Back to top

7. Chance for a kill if you compete in a Throne of blood-like tournament.

https://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=12654&op=view
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 14:56 Reply with quote Back to top

MerryZ wrote:
No reason not to foul turn 16 if you dont score.


Pffft!

Foul. Then score. Twisted Evil

Ideally, foul with a leaping, DP troll.

I know that Christer, Candlejack & Co. have enough to do already.
But seriously, if you leap into a foul, you really should get an extra +1. If not +2.

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[SL] + Official Stunty teams. Progression KO. Old & new teams welcome. 29th May!
dabassman



Joined: Feb 17, 2006

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 15:19 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
4. The environment is TV-matched and some teams tend to hover at a certain TV. I play a lot in the Box and I often face the same teams. With thousands of teams it would be very unlikely to find again the same team, but the site has not many users and the Box is an even smaller subset, so, you can find the same team quite often, especially at high TV, because there are not many high TV teams.


I think what Jan is saying is that if you foul - and potentially SI or kill - a developed player, you won't be facing this team again in Blackbox as it will have a lower TV, unless that player is replaced by something with the same value. So no advantage (besides avoiding the team in the future).
Tulkas_jrrt



Joined: Apr 30, 2012

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 16:11 Reply with quote Back to top

And you may clean the pitch then score for the win !
My inner opinion is that if you can't stand getting your players fouled, you may not like playing Blood Bowl at all.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 16:13 Reply with quote Back to top

If you kill of main a good player, then you have set back that coach's team.

It gives the coach something else to think about in terms of where they want their players to be. Twisted Evil

It is called the "Competitive" division. Ya gotta expect no holds barred.

If you just want to chat and have fun then come and help us out with the rookies at 145. Very Happy
Especially come along if you are a rookie.

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moph



Joined: Sep 16, 2020

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:

2. justifying a behaviour because it makes sense fluff wise is stupid.

You basically calling the coaches stupid that enjoy the roleplaying aspect of the game more than the competetive? Seems like you are trying to build your own ruthless reputation. One might argue that playing a game competetive that relies heaviely on dice rolls might be stupid. Wink
JanMattys wrote:

...gaming is a social behaviour first and foremost.

thats the important point. The playing environment is important. It's harder to anticipate what the social norms are in online play, thats why the OP is asking.
Maybe coaches could state in their Bio if they find it disrespectful not to be fouled in T16 or not. Leauges and tournaments could make it clear what is seen as acceptable.

You could even argue that it is bad game design to allow fouls with "no technical advantage". You also could argue that it is not worth whining about a legal action that destroys your team in a game called BLOOD bowl.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 16:18 Reply with quote Back to top

dabassman wrote:


I think what Jan is saying is that if you foul - and potentially SI or kill - a developed player, you won't be facing this team again in Blackbox as it will have a lower TV, unless that player is replaced by something with the same value. So no advantage (besides avoiding the team in the future).


You can face that team with another team of yours because you can activate many teams in the Box.
You could have faced a 1500 team with a 1500 team of yours, killed a player with a foul, and then facing that team again at 1400 with a different team of yours. In case of a TV gap, for example you playing a 1400 team vs 1500 team, fouling a player will reduce the TV gap next game, in case you should face again that team.
I didn't say that you will face that team again with the same team of yours, but that you could face again that team. I consider the bigger picture.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 16:46 Reply with quote Back to top

moph wrote:
JanMattys wrote:

2. justifying a behaviour because it makes sense fluff wise is stupid.

You basically calling the coaches stupid that enjoy the roleplaying aspect of the game more than the competetive? Seems like you are trying to build your own ruthless reputation. One might argue that playing a game competetive that relies heaviely on dice rolls might be stupid. Wink

I'm not calling anyone stupid so please don't paint me worse than I am. Smile
That said, it's like point 1... YOU enjoy and justfy YOUR behaviour with fluff. It's great and I'm all for it. The thing is, you are sharing a social moment with another person, so telling him "hey, my guy is bad and was friend with that gutter runner, so I'll foul ya" might be good or bad depending on the situation and the opponent. Saying that it's always good because it makes sense only justifies your half of the equation.

Anyway. This topic is old as fumbbl itself.
There's no definitive answer. It's a mix as "do as you like", "no it's not forbidden", "yes sometimes it is frowned upon" and "some people consider it a sign of respect".

My guideline is "I won't do it if I don't know the opponent or we didn't build a friendly banter during the game", mixed with "If I know the opponent and it's a friendly rivalry, then all hell breaks loose".

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moph



Joined: Sep 16, 2020

Post   Posted: May 10, 2023 - 17:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I think your guideline is very valuable for coaches in doubt.
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