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extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 15:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Some thoughts on this subject from a historically poorly motivated stressy coach who has seen the light and is attempting to keep things in perspective far better now.

Taking a goblin match is like putting a lot of money on a shortish odds bet. You have a statistical advantage in nearly every department, you are likely to cause a lot of damage. If you win the toss (particularly with elves) then you have a much better than 50% chance of putting the game out of reach inside 3 turns. If you lose the toss then there is a chance you'll take some serious damage in the first few turns and against an experienced goblin coach (like me) there is a chance with even dice that they can keep everyone important out of reach and hurt a lot of players in the first half. Your bet is therefore a 60/40 or 70/30 chance of an excellent outcome and bagfuls of spp but the consequences of losing your bet can be grievous.

However! They are probably going to lose between 2 and 6 players even on a scoring drive that lasts all 8 turns due to sendings off and kos/cas. Some of them will be important players. You will have a T8 to try to take 3 more out. Your chances of starting 2nd half with numbers advantage are still good when you have taken a beating.

I would regard myself as being pretty good at gobbos. But even still think about what it means to someone who has suffered 16 turn beatings at the hands of stronger races and has finally seen enough dice to be in a decent position. I EARNED that position by sacrifice. When you concede you are denying me the spp that could come from a successful game which is the only thing that counterbalances the games where things dont go my way and I am overwhelmed. When coaches concede from what they think are losing positions they make it very hard to coach the more exotic and fragile races because there aren't balancing forces to all the beatings. This means the only races you see on gamefinder are av9 and up with tons of bash skills. BB is cool because you can get matchups between contrasting play styles. Conceding threatens that. Its obvious from a look on GF races that bash FAR outweighs non-bash races which means there arent so many of us left coaching the little guys.

We will play dirty, we will try to frustrate you because thats the only way we can win usually. We will try to do lots of things on the pitch that are potentially annoying because again, thats necessary to win. Im not going to repeat all the arguments against conceding but the fact is although we take some satisfaction from forcing a concession, frequently the other coach doesnt have time to start another game. So you're depriving them of the opportunity to enjoy the activity.

I understand that the other side of the coin is that if you are becoming frustrated and pissed off by your 'bet' looking like a loser then yes it is a leisure activity and therefore why should you hang around to be made to feel bad. 2 things, number one like with gambling, don't bet with anything you're not prepared to lose be that players or matches. Number two, this is a weird kind of hybrid RPG/board game. At its best its a combo of fantasy and strategy. Its best not to get too hung up on the second of those, sometimes the dice just want to tell you a story and if you let them and determine to see the humour in the weirdness then poor outcomes arent failures but chapters in a story that you are immersed in. So there is an option to hold a disposition that means a failed game isnt a downer to your day.

And if it doesnt feel like an option to you, don't take games against gobbos or any stunty. Its not fair to the other coach if them winning means you quitting. Try to figure out ways to play them better or dont bother.

IMO a concession should only occur at the end of the first half against stunty and then only if you have less than 5 players (altho this number depends on what race you are coaching, certainly elves can tie a game with 5 vs 11). At the very least you need to give the stunty coach 8 turns opportunity to farm spp if they are in a winning position. At that point we are more likely to shrug and wish you well rather than feel like something has been taken from us.

I am in no position to judge anyone, I have historically been a stressed out coach and a poor opponent many many times/and like Jekyll and Hyde also capable of enormous gracefulness. I'm much, much better now and less protective of my players/pixels and statistics but still far from perfect and can still behave poorly (although concessions are v rare and 99% of the time when I've literally run out of players, one sided games usually end quick so its not so hard to tough it out in a losing effort).

Lastly it is of course much, much better to concede than to end up in irritable exchanges with the other coach in chat (a standard i have also fallen short of plenty). All the above advice is meant to prevent that choice from occurring, but if thats where its at then there is only one decent choice to make.


Last edited by extremegrazedknee on %b %18, %2024 - %16:%Apr; edited 2 times in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 16:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Where is the TLDR? Very Happy

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Last edited by koadah on %b %18, %2024 - %18:%Apr; edited 1 time in total
extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 16:07 Reply with quote Back to top

In my pocketses!


Last edited by extremegrazedknee on %b %18, %2024 - %20:%Apr; edited 1 time in total
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 16:44 Reply with quote Back to top

If it doesnt take Holmes, maybe it takes Watson.

Also agree, conceding to goblins is so sad and you should be burned

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 17:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I think of conceding at all, regardless of whom it's against, as an act of negative-sum spite.

In Chess, if you knock your king over, you're saying, "yeah, you got me."

In Blood Bowl, you're saying, "I'm willing to wreck my team and take a permanent mark of shame just to make sure you don't get any more goodies over the next 30 minutes."

I don't think that's obvious to people who come here from Chess. Or really anywhere outside the progression board game community. It seems bizarre to some that it's a sign of poor sportsmanship, partly because your opponent complaining too much about it is also poor sportsmanship. But it is.

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extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 17:19 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:

I don't think that's obvious to people who come here from Chess. Or really anywhere outside the progression board game community. It seems bizarre to some that it's a sign of poor sportsmanship, partly because your opponent complaining too much about it is also poor sportsmanship. But it is.


For my part I guess i was playing BB like chess, i felt it was an intellectual exercise and coaching elves was an aesthetic choice of favouring more expansive imaginative play. Being hung up on that kinda stuff made the frustration of poor dice too much to handle. And then there's the difficulties that come about through the anonymity of the interface that simply wouldnt occur in real life, bad behaviour has less consequences. Most of us have leaned on that at least once in our lives, here or elsewhere.

Having become more interested in RPG in general I have come to realise that stuff like D&D does encourage one to engage in an immersive story rather than simply try to exhibit ones prowess. I vow to maintain that optional viewpoint as much as possible when Nuffle gives me another spiked boot to the soft bits!
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 17:33 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
I think of conceding at all, regardless of whom it's against, as an act of negative-sum spite.

In Chess, if you knock your king over, you're saying, "yeah, you got me."

In Blood Bowl, you're saying, "I'm willing to wreck my team and take a permanent mark of shame just to make sure you don't get any more goodies over the next 30 minutes."

I don't think that's obvious to people who come here from Chess. Or really anywhere outside the progression board game community. It seems bizarre to some that it's a sign of poor sportsmanship, partly because your opponent complaining too much about it is also poor sportsmanship. But it is.


You only permanently wreck your team if it was a high TV game. WIth only a few games under the other players belt, this probably had zero impact on their team except less of them are injured than had they finished the game... probably.
Valuing pixels over W's.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 20:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Carthage wrote:
You only permanently wreck your team if it was a high TV game. WIth only a few games under the other players belt, this probably had zero impact on their team except less of them are injured than had they finished the game... probably.
Valuing pixels over W's.
Timing and format matter a lot in this case.

In a scheduled league, early in the season, a lost MVP and lost winnings in the first week are probably worse than losing another player, and the guaranteed DF loss is really bad if you bought some but not much (it's bad if you bought much too, but losing would probably be the same on that front). If it's late in the season, you probably have players in danger of resigning in disgust.

If you're playing in Box or Competitive, it's not as bad in competitive terms, but your opponent is a human being who might not have time to find another game, and you just cut their experience short.

You're here to have fun, yes, but as a BB coach you're also kind of an entertainer too, in a funny sort of way. You sat down knowing that you might be able to run up the score and spill lots of blood, that's part of the appeal. If it happens to be the other guy doing it instead, well, you're still facilitating.

One more thing: why are you doing this? Like, there are a gajillion awesome games out there. We live in a gaming renaissance. There are many gaming communities, most of them are massive and largely amazing, and our parents and grandparents, even those still alive, largely could not (or cannot) conceive of the options available to you, of which you are doubtless aware. Blood Bowl is one of the better ones, IMO, sure, but only because it's really good at conveying its core ethic. That ethic? Thicken your skin, suck it up, play through the anguish, give as good as you get, and don't give up or let up until the whistle's echo. If that's not something that appeals to you, and yet you're here, maybe you should inquire as to your underlying motives, and perhaps it's time to resolve to put some hair on your chest, or suck it up, buttercup, or whatever stupid aphorism you like, and enjoy the game for what it is.

I like this game because it's okay to fail. It's not fun actually smashing other people's faces into the dirt, but doing it metaphorically to a volunteer victim is as much fun as it is only because it's also fun, in a different way, to get steamrolled despite your best efforts. That's not fun when it happens in a way that matters. Losing a contract, getting dumped, getting mobbed and beat to a pulp, all that sucks, because it affects your real life: you gotta carry the bruises or find a new gig or whatever. Good thing it only hurt my CR... whew! Got that snake-eyes out of my life. Conceding frivolously, or even under anything but the most extreme duress, isn't just rejecting that, it's dismissing the validity of what I see as one of the core elements of the game. It's fine if you save it for special occasions, but I've taken 7 concessions in my last hundred games, and that's just not cool.

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extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 20:29 Reply with quote Back to top

I would also say that under BB20 ruleset where teams are now seemingly peaking out between 15 and 1700k team building is not as important as it used to be. So saving your players doesnt matter so much anymore.

I think its more about the feelings. And as someone whose also struggled with the disappointment i do have compassion for that. But this game would just be frustrating for everyone if we didnt try and see it another way. Fortunes comes in fits and starts so 1 coach is often on the receiving end. We've got to reinterpret what failure is and select better motivations for playing so that when we do get Nuffled into oblivion its no longer a reason to quit.
Jan-Erik



Joined: Apr 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 21:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't know why you feel like you're entitled to farm SPP and have fun at the expense of someone else but I think it's pretty sad. You're the one who chose to play the worst roster in the game and people don't owe you anything for it. If the only way for you to enjoy Blood Bowl is to get lucky with a bad team and stomp on the opposing player I'd suggest finding other ways to enjoy the game or play something else. Your opponent is not your baby sitter or mom, it takes two people to have a good match and both are only responsible for their own enjoyment.

It is simply not reasonable to ask for every random player out there to expect the same things out of the game. Some people want to see their CR go up, some want to build big teams, some just want to see funny blood splatters and some don't want to waste their time on a foregone conclusion. I think the better solution here is to play in a league or tournament setting with likeminded people instead of expecting everyone else to share your values.
extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 22:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Jan-Erik wrote:
I don't know why you feel like you're entitled to farm SPP


I dont. If you sit down to start a game you are making an agreement to finish it. what i choose to do with my players is up to me and vice versa.

its just courtesy. and if games arent worth finishing unless you win them you shouldnt play them at all. I am confident of saying that this is central to the ethos of this site. Its not about league vs open play.
Jan-Erik



Joined: Apr 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 22:04 Reply with quote Back to top

The concede button does finish the match last I checked.
extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 22:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Jan-Erik wrote:
The concede button does finish the match last I checked.


Its your call. If you wish to focus purely on your rights rather than the consequences of certain choices on what is a lovely community mostly then thats up to you. As you can see on the thread and by perusing the Fumbbl code of conduct, concession anytime you've had enough is not what the button exists for (its meant to be for RW stuff that cant wait and avoiding the need for rescheduling). Where one draws the line is inevitably pretty personal although if you do it too much an admin may intervene.

The point of this thread isnt to tell anyone what to do, its to discuss in a friendly fashion and offer a few thoughts as to how to make the game less frustrating so that you dont let others down by withdrawing coz you're losing. It was clear in the OP that these things are offered without judgement so no need to bring loaded language like 'mom' and 'babysitter' into it. We is here for fun man!

Wink
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2024 - 23:01 Reply with quote Back to top

If it matters, i think teams like goblins do deserve to get the chance to win. I ALSO think they are so bad that the only real chance of this is if they destroy the opponent. So at this stage i agree with the OP. HOWEVER, next, i think aiming to destroy your opponent as the path to victory is generally bad (unless you always use gamefinder and are very blatant up front about what kind of game you want, see Angry Newscasters) and causes issues in the community. Therefore, my final conclusion is that you should not play goblins [unless game results like winning or spp don't matter to you, and you only care about the dice mayhem within a given match.]

I realize this isnt a very productive or helpful mindset, but.. i wish all teams were tier 1 or 2 (with teams like nobility or renegades being 2.5, and therefore not making the cut (let alone ogres, flings and goblins who are even worse) and teams like orcs and underworld being tier 0 or 0.5 and also not making the cut.)

I think goblins (and all teams that don't make the cut) should have a plan A, under the assumption that 'destroying the opponent' is at best plan C, and opponents against them should also have a Plan A that isnt 'i hope the dice screw them over'. And until the rules change to allow that, they should not be played. Better would be to not BUY any goblins (and all the other teams that dont make the cut), so that GW would hear their audience demanding changes, but meh.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2024 - 00:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I like Nobility. It feels like concessions can be a tax for playing too well, sometimes.

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