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SeriliKirico



Joined: Sep 13, 2017

Post   Posted: Jun 11, 2024 - 21:04 Reply with quote Back to top

So, what if Stab would work on adjacent prone enemy players exactly as on the standing ones (so it's not a Foul action)? Would Assassins become a bit more viable choice? Would they become OP? May be limit Stab usage on prone players to just once per turn? Any thoughts?
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 11, 2024 - 21:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Stab is terrible, and that wouldnt help it enough for me to care.

It would be about as good as adding pass block to kick off return. Of course on the ball is better than kick off return, but im still not taking on the ball if i wouldnt have taken kick off return.

Same thing here, i still wouldnt take stab unless everything else is worth it. And a wood elf lineman is not worth 85k.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Jun 11, 2024 - 21:54 Reply with quote Back to top

If you could keep moving after you stab someone that might be enough by itself to make it ok but even then, I don't think most delf teams take it unless they are in an elf/zon/stunty heavy format and maybe not then. If they made the assassin MA8 or gave it starting sidestep instead of shadowing, it might get used. Or maybe if it got +1 to the armor check the way chainsaw gets +3? There's a lot of ways to buff it slightly but do we really want to buff the only league viable elf race without buffing the bad ones?
razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Jun 11, 2024 - 22:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Truth in advertising demands that "Stab" be renamed to the "please punch me in my face"-skill... except that wouldn't fit on the skill bands for tabletop. But that's how I always read that skill. (The handful of times where it's been a useful skill... are outstanding, and I can point to a handful of games... one handful... fewer than five.)

I think the only way to make it really useful is to give it to high armor roadblocks who don't have easy access to block (or have other reasons not to block) instead of mobile tissue-paper origami... but Trolls already GOT projectile vomit. So, stab is currently just an improved vomit... where you can't accidentally get your knife all over yourself... but I'd watch more dark elf games if that could happen. "Ooo... betcha he wishes he hadn't envenomed THAT blade. That's gotta hurt."

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Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 00:50 Reply with quote Back to top

An.... interesting use is you *can* substitute the second block of a frenzy hit with a stab. If you didn't want to do another hit forwhatever reason. Which is interesting.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 03:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the value of the Assassin is better in 2020 due to the MA boost. I agree that stab is weak particularly vs high AV teams but they can be used as a runner / catcher and gain skills to become viable members of the squad and use stab selectively.

But if we were to buff stab that's ok but is it warranted on a Dark Elf team that's already Tier 1 and holding its own in the meta.

Whilst stab is weak in itself, is it warranted to boost DEs overall?
smeborg



Joined: Jan 04, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 06:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I tentatively suggest that Assassins are now about right. They were given not one, but two boosts in BB2020 (+MA and I think -5,000 in price). Stabbing is an entirely risk-free action, so I suggest perhaps should not be boosted in itself.

My own experience with Assassins suggests that they are OK (and fun). They bring positives and negatives to the DE team. I doubt many top coaches have explored the range of options open to Assassins in practical play yet.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 06:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Nah. Theyre still worse than a lineelf. Theyre no longer a trap player that makee your team worse by having them, but they arent cost effective yet. Theyre a wood elf lineman that costs an extra 15k, snd come with shadowing and stab. A wood elf lineman that randoms shadowing is instant los fodder, so we know shadowing isnt worth 10k, so we'll call it 5. Stab is worse than doing a one die block (in terms of success). Although it has no failure mode, its also so poor at sucxeeding that its only good as an 'oh, i guess i could try that' move, rather than an actual plan A.
So its also only worth 5. So an assassin is still overpriced.

But its MA 7! .. yeah, there are 8 other players on the team with MA 7, and 4 of them also have av 8+. The best thing about dark (and high) elves is ag 2+ with av 9+. Anything that reduces that has to be fantastic, and ma 7 past the furst 3-5 players just isnt that great.

Assassins are bad and should not be hired, even with the 2020 buffs.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 09:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Change Assassins so they are mercs that are reasonably priced inducements and not rostered players.

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smeborg



Joined: Jan 04, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 10:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I think Assassins are very good in some match-ups, and less good in others. For example, if the opposition is low AV and/or low MA, the Assassins are better. The following Blackbox cameo match (5 1/2 turns):

https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4539868

is a good example of the former, where the Assassins got 2 CAS and 3 KOs from Stabbing in just 6 turns (of 9 opposition players put in the dugout). This was a depleted DE team, with 2 Blitzers MNG and only 1 acquired skill (Leader).

It also depends on environment. I am open-minded as to whether Assassins work well or not in a TV-matched environment, but note that you can start (as I did) with 2 of them at TV100 (3 Blitzers, 2 Assassins, 1 Runner, 5 Linos, 2 RRs, aggregate MA of 72). You can take 2 Assassins for the same cost as a Blitzer and a Lino, so they can hardly be deemed expensive.

The option to take 1 or 2 free Stabs on the offensive LoS is I suggest something not to be sniffed at.
smeborg



Joined: Jan 04, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 12:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I would add: I think Assassins work better as a pair.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 13:45 Reply with quote Back to top

.. ive explained my view. I disagree with basucally everything youve said. Unless your opponent has av 7+ or worse, or av 8+ and mass blodge, stab is bad. Assassins delay getting witches, which are one of the best players in the game. DE blitzers are also great. You always want to get those 6 players as fast as elvenly possible.
Irgy



Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

By the raw numbers assassins are bad value, and min-maxing ignoring the value of stab you definitely wouldn't take one. But what stab does is give you options that simply aren't available to anyone else.

It's turn 8 or for whatever other reason you're running the ball in but you haven't used your blitz yet. Do you take the greedy blitz? If you do, 1/36 games this guy saves you a touchdown because you get the armour roll you wanted without the double-skulls. If you don't, at least 1/36 games (and almost certainly more) this guy gets you a cas on the player of your choice (not just whoever you can set up 2 dice on) you would have missed out on.

On an offensive drive, it's basically a free armour roll. Not just because it's zero risk, but also because if it fails you leave everyone where they were - sometimes sure you can block into another block.

Sometimes there's a ball carrier you can reach but can't get better than -2d. Assassin might not be great odds but it's often better than -2d, and better outcomes on both success and failure.

I feel like a lot of people complaining about him just use him poorly. You do in fact try to avoid the stab->fail->get smashed scenario. Set him up as an assist, if it fails block the player off him. Use him to mark players on the ground.

As far as the original question goes, I'd say I almost never want to stab a player on the ground instead of a player standing, though I guess I'd still use the option any time I was only standing next to grounded players (and by blitz was needed elsewhere as it generally is). But I think on the whole the people who hate assassins would still hate them and the people who like them would still like them about the same amount. If GW wants him to get played by the uncreative min-maxers who shun him now they need to lower the cost or give up better stats.
Irgy



Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 14:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
.. ive explained my view. I disagree with basucally everything youve said. Unless your opponent has av 7+ or worse, or av 8+ and mass blodge, stab is bad. Assassins delay getting witches, which are one of the best players in the game. DE blitzers are also great. You always want to get those 6 players as fast as elvenly possible.


Yeah I gotta say for all I sing their praises I'd never take one in place of a witch or blitzer that would just be stupid. I think they're good in a healthy 12+ player team.
Jayward



Joined: Dec 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Jun 12, 2024 - 15:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been seeing the Assassin more frequently over the last year at TT tournaments and it's caught me out a couple of times with cage dives. If they make the dodge, stabbing an AV9+ player is better odds of a knockdown than a 2D uphill block.
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