Jackbedead
Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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 Posted:
Dec 20, 2004 - 19:34 |
 
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Vamps don't need or deserve a big guy. They are strong players. OFAB is too damaging and should be downgraded. I think it should be that on a 4+ the vamp has quenched their thirst and the thrall is okay. On a 1-3 the thrall is drained of blood and passes out, treat as a KO. That is how it SHOULD be. |
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spinball
Joined: Jul 01, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2004 - 19:48 |
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Honestly I think that the ofab is fine, i have a fairly successfull vamp team, as long as you have enough rr, and put a few thralls out you don't care about its not a big deal. However I would like the vampires to eligible for racial traits, IE razor sharp fangs, seems fitting to me, but the trait if neg (ie rcc) must also must be used on the thralls. Spikes, RCF, Claws, foul Apperence, big hand, thick skull and horns seem appropirate for vampires to me. And for those you who would argue it would overpower the normal teams, look at a skaven team, they don't need racials, and I don't care who you are, Skaven are the best team to start with and one of the best exp teams out there. That would be the only change I would make, and I think it would be appropriate.
Also if someone wished to have a vampire lord they should have ofab too, except on the vampires themselves, thats what I call play balance. Take care |
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Zy-Nox
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2004 - 19:51 |
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| Galakstarscraper wrote: | This is supposed to be a challenging team to play ... easier to win with than Stunties ... but more difficult than the other teams ... this is on purpose in the team's design.
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There you have It from a BBRC member.  |
_________________
"Who made that girly Zy-kNox Mod?"
Anarchy Online |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2004 - 20:26 |
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| Zy-Nox wrote: | | Galakstarscraper wrote: | This is supposed to be a challenging team to play ... easier to win with than Stunties ... but more difficult than the other teams ... this is on purpose in the team's design.
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There you have It from a BBRC member. |
Also ... guys your own data doesn't support at all that this team needs ANY changes at all.
Your top 10 oldest (ie most games played) Vampires in Ranked have played a total of 185 games. Currently those 10 teams have won 56%, tied 19%, and lost only 25% of their games.
Guys ... we (the BBRC) aren't going to make the team better as this thread is suggesting should be done when the team is only losing 25% of their matches once they get rolling. The whole point of the new Bloodlust action is that without it the team will be too good at higher levels of TR. 56% right now is definitely evidence that Bloodlust is working just fine.
Not saying you cannot get new ideas and present them for consideration ... just saying that the current FUMBBL data isn't supporting the campaign to change the team at all.
Galak |
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Cortelll
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2004 - 21:56 |
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All-kindred
Vampire
jardel
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/91
Assamita
Vampire
Tariq
0 15 (3/4/ 33 15-23 2/7/7-18/11/11 151/112
AviS
Vampire
tava6dio
10000 7 (4/1/2) 64 12-8 5/5/2-7/4/3 158/140
Band Wagon biters
Vampire
Frail
20000 4 (1/0/3) 25 4-6 3/1/1-4/2/0 129/113
BlodPølse
Vampire
skideballe
60000 1 (0/0/1) 0 0-1 0/0/0-2/0/0 109/91
Blood Magic
Vampire
jahatan
30000 4 (3/0/1) 75 9-3 2/3/2-3/0/1 127/110
blood n booze
Vampire
skizzystoner
40000 3 (0/1/2) 17 1-6 1/2/0-4/3/1 121/97
Blood of Vostock
Vampire
Tolmandary
50000 8 (3/0/5) 38 13-18 7/3/1-20/3/7 145/128
Blooderlust
Vampire
spinball
10000 14 (8/2/4) 64 29-21 9/17/5-8/8/3 186/170
Bound by Red Ties
Vampire
SyberCat
20000 5 (0/1/4) 10 2-15 2/2/1-7/4/1 110/96
BowlSuckers
Vampire
armchairwarrior
20000 2 (0/0/2) 0 0-4 0/0/0-3/3/1 112/100
Brainbugs
Vampire
Jugger
30000 5 (2/3/0) 70 9-4 5/0/1-5/1/1 127/112
Brujah Canines
Vampire
Yashin
30000 8 (3/0/5) 38 8-12 3/4/2-5/7/5 146/139
Buffy the slayed
Vampire
Evil-Eve
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/91
Carstein Predators
Vampire
Jonke75
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/94
City Hoppers
Vampire
DD
130000 3 (0/0/3) 0 1-7 2/0/1-4/2/0 116/86
Count on me
Vampire
Diamond5119
10000 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/92
Count to Three
Vampire
Jackbedead
70000 5 (0/1/4) 10 4-13 0/1/1-7/2/4 118/97
Counts of Australia
Vampire
cameo
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/91
Cruentus
Vampire
Iceman76
30000 1 (0/0/1) 0 0-4 0/1/0-1/0/0 109/97
Crushing Chess Players
Vampire
East
40000 17 (12/2/3) 76 32-16 16/6/1-17/18/6 185/163
Darklings
Vampire
MickeX
50000 7 (6/1/0) 93 16-2 4/3/1-10/3/3 161/136
Darkness Fall
Vampire
Nikkia
10000 19 (6/3/10) 39 23-30 15/14/7-20/10/7 183/172
DD lucky
Vampire
diffuser
90000 4 (0/0/4) 0 1-9 1/1/2-7/2/3 117/96
Diabolistas Perversos
Vampire
matalotoo
70000 2 (0/0/2) 0 0-6 2/2/0-1/1/0 114/93
Dracult
Vampire
FunTeX
90000 1 (0/0/1) 0 0-2 0/0/0-2/2/0 106/74
Érdi Vérivók
Vampire
Sir_Andrew
10000 3 (0/0/3) 0 1-7 1/1/0-4/1/1 118/122
Fangs a Lot
Vampire
skummy
10000 11 (6/4/1) 73 22-12 12/4/4-16/2/3 167/162
Fangs of Lust
Vampire
On1
30000 2 (0/0/2) 0 3-6 0/1/0-1/1/1 99/81
FangsForTheMemories
Vampire
Torpor
50000 1 (0/1/0) 50 2-2 0/0/0-0/2/0 106/85
Freunde der Sonne
Vampire
KingNothing
20000 12 (3/3/6) 38 16-20 7/4/2-16/10/2 157/125
Gangrel
Vampire
neander
0 11 (9/1/1) 86 24-6 9/10/3-10/6/1 147/126
Gangrel Gang
Vampire
Ladzurat
0 19 (11/4/4) 68 36-26 11/13/2-24/18/6 182/154
Grand Children of Caine
Vampire
Fnug
30000 2 (1/0/1) 50 2-3 4/1/0-3/3/0 112/84
Graveyard Guards
Vampire
Vampiric_Aura
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/92
HemoPHILLYa
Vampire
Daleri
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/92
Hollywood Vampires
Vampire
Kane
10000 2 (1/0/1) 50 2-2 0/1/1-1/0/1 117/101
Immortal Choir
Vampire
Wreckingball
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/94
In Girum Imus Nocte
Vampire
Garaygos
20000 4 (1/0/3) 25 3-6 2/3/2-5/3/1 126/109
Josey and the Yah Yah's
Vampire
Fafner_Man
50000 2 (1/1/0) 75 5-2 2/0/0-0/0/0 121/108
Julii
Vampire
JoUnA_T
50000 5 (2/0/3) 40 5-7 2/2/1-5/5/2 128/115
King D II
Vampire
jorila
0 3 (0/1/2) 17 1-6 2/3/0-3/1/2 117/101
La Mascarada
Vampire
Sir_Belial
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/94
Lords of Sylvania
Vampire
The_Emperor
20000 4 (2/0/2) 50 6-8 3/1/2-1/1/0 135/103
mmmm, u r tasty
Vampire
stryder
80000 1 (1/0/0) 100 2-1 0/0/1-0/1/0 111/99
Morose Monkey
Vampire
Fabrizio
30000 2 (2/0/0) 100 4-2 1/1/0-0/1/0 120/104
Nachtburg Ancients
Vampire
Burnalot
0 20 (13/5/2) 78 40-17 22/13/7-20/12/7 191/156
Night Spirits
Vampire
JC
90000 7 (3/1/3) 50 10-10 8/4/3-7/6/2 158/139
Nightfall Champions
Vampire
SoahC
0 1 (0/1/0) 50 1-1 0/1/0-0/1/0 106/95
Ordo Peccatorum
Vampire
BiafraBoy
0 1 (0/0/1) 0 0-1 0/0/0-0/1/0 99/90
Out of the Abyss
Vampire
Luk
100000 11 (7/1/3) 68 20-18 13/8/2-13/7/0 175/151
ReRisen Methusulas
Vampire
slanter
10000 13 (9/2/2) 77 22-11 8/5/2-19/14/5 182/166
Rodnei's Hunters
Vampire
Nowhereman
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/93
Rulers of Starside
Vampire
GreenAvenger
30000 17 (10/5/2) 74 26-13 12/10/7-16/15/9 180/163
Sghivesgheves
Vampire
uomotalpa
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/92
Shinsei's Kami
Vampire
Wizard
120000 6 (3/1/2) 58 7-6 9/5/1-5/1/2 144/119
Silverbullets
Vampire
falconeyed
90000 2 (0/1/1) 25 2-4 1/1/0-3/3/1 99/78
Stirring Gravers
Vampire
Lamel
120000 11 (6/0/5) 55 15-15 5/3/3-12/4/0 178/149
Suck Young Blood
Vampire
stonedz
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/94
Sylvania Elite
Vampire
Wolfpriest
70000 24 (15/2/7) 67 37-24 12/9/8-37/27/8 181/153
That Sucks
Vampire
Eddy
60000 8 (5/1/2) 69 15-11 7/5/5-16/7/0 152/138
They Came From The Mist
Vampire
SirKillalot
10000 2 (0/0/2) 0 2-5 3/2/0-4/2/1 108/96
Thi Basssement Sssuckerssss
Vampire
Michelangelo
10000 1 (0/1/0) 50 1-1 0/0/0-3/1/0 110/98
Thrall Crawl
Vampire
Nemerus
10000 7 (4/0/3) 57 11-8 2/2/2-7/3/7 133/113
Thuper Thwell People
Vampire
bob_kogler
0 6 (2/0/4) 33 5-8 3/0/4-5/3/1 126/112
Torturers of Azkaban
Vampire
pixyled
60000 5 (1/1/3) 30 6-9 5/3/1-3/6/2 126/102
Transylvanian citizen
Vampire
Mr_QB
70000 1 (0/1/0) 50 1-1 0/0/1-0/0/0 110/92
Transylvanian Trekkers
Vampire
Mr_Launcher
20000 27 (15/6/6) 67 43-27 7/11/5-42/26/14 228/176
True Servants of Nuffle
Vampire
jimi
0 14 (9/1/4) 68 18-14 18/11/5-11/13/5 155/133
Under Heel
Vampire
Drokmar
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/90
Vampire All-Stars
Vampire
Fulgrim
20000 6 (1/1/4) 25 8-11 4/2/0-6/3/1 134/119
Vampires
Vampire
peikko
30000 2 (1/0/1) 50 1-3 1/2/0-0/0/1 110/95
Vampires of the Dark Spirit
Vampire
TheDayWalkes
0 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/89
Vamps and Prey
Vampire
DennisHelved
100000 14 (4/5/5) 46 14-15 9/9/4-18/12/6 161/127
Vamps n´ Dudes
Vampire
lancio
130000 8 (2/2/4) 38 9-10 11/5/1-5/5/3 141/109
Van Helsing's Standins
Vampire
NosusKhan
90000 0 (0/0/0) 0 0-0 0/0/0-0/0/0 100/71
Vanhel's Vultures
Vampire
shaqpooh
10000 1 (1/0/0) 100 1-0 0/0/0-2/1/1 98/88
Viri Acerbi
Vampire
Groo
10000 11 (3/1/7) 32 13-18 9/6/3-18/10/6 152/121
We be thirsty
Vampire
Muffe
0 8 (3/0/5) 38 7-9 7/2/3-17/6/0 156/136
Whisky Club
Vampire
jste
90000 6 (3/0/3) 50 4-8 8/0/1-9/6/3 133/107
All vampire Teams in R |
_________________
Cortelll
Bloodbowl World Cup
Vamps Group
Last edited by Cortelll on %b %20, %2004 - %22:%Dec; edited 2 times in total |
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Cortelll
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2004 - 22:14 |
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Some Stats Based on those teams:
79 active teams in R
66 of them have actually played a game
13 no games played
21 teams with winning record
24 teams with tying record
34 teams with losing record
out of 79 teams 11 have postivive casualties number, only 1 team has double figures (12)
out of 79 teams 46 have a negative number of casualties, 14 out of 46 teams have double figures, 5 out of those 14 have 20 or more
out of 11 teams that have positive casualties 8 of them have a winning record, 2 a tying record, and 1 a losing record, the team with a winning record has only played 2 games
There are 211 wins
79 ties
170 loses
the top ten teams by TR convine for 90 wins 42% of the total wins out of 79 teams
the top ten teams by TR convie for 43 loses 26% of the total loses out of 79 teams
The highest ranked team by TR Transylvanian Trekkers is ranked 725th in by TR out of all open teams
only 1 team out of 79 has made it over 200TR
Total Number of Positive/negative casualties of all vampires team convined (-)323
Here are some stats, everybody can drawn their own conclusions, but I think the Vampire team has a big draw back with the current OFAB rule, that a lot of people are not playing with it because they actually desire to win, and that something should be done about it.
I hope that this data helped everybody out,
Thanks,
 A vampire Fan  |
_________________
Cortelll
Bloodbowl World Cup
Vamps Group |
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Vero
Joined: Dec 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2004 - 22:41 |
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Cortell: Feel free to suggest and playtest a better, balanced, ofab. |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2004 - 23:09 |
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| Vero wrote: | | Cortell: Feel free to suggest and playtest a better, balanced, ofab. |
And to be clear ... I support this. I just don't want him to think that 100 signitures and a playtested idea are enough to get to the team changed by itself.
The current version of OFAB came from playtesting and a fan suggestion ... so go for it. Just wanted to be clear that you cannot look at overall FUMBBL performance as this is a team whose rules are in place to prevent it from becoming overpowered when older ... so to look at balance you need to look at the teams that have had chances to develop ... that is where you need to ask the question of balance with the Vampire team ... not in its early stages of play.
Galak |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2004 - 23:10 |
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Average win % of teams with 7* or more games from Cortell's list: 59.037%
Average win % of teams with 1 to 6* games from Cortell's list: 33.816%
It's a new roster - and a difficult one at that. People need to learn how to play with it. Why is this surprising?
Also, any of the stats in relation to [R] as a whole are inherently skewed by the fact that Vampires are new there. Of course they aren't too high on the all-time TR list... they haven't had enough time to get up there.
Of course the CAS differential is high. Look at Skaven. AV 7 linemen without any defensive skill (like Norse and Zons) or the ability to consistently dodge away (like Pro and Wood Elves) are going to suffer. Guys who take 6 vamps and no RRs naturally exacerbate that.
Additionally, Vampire teams start off with (essentially) no skills. Compare their low-TR win percentage to an equivalent number of starting Chaos or Rotter teams. I bet it will look pretty similar.
* the cutoff between 6 and 7 games was purely arbitrary and it happened to produce two roughly equivalent chunks of teams. 27 teams of 7+ and 38 with 6-, I think. The rest of the 79 had 0 games. |
_________________
Ta-Ouch! of BloodBowl
Condensed Guide for Newbies |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 21, 2004 - 01:18 |
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Idea to Cortell: play ska.
Anyway I think it's a good idea to keep some team hard to play well. It's a pretty challenge even if I haven't already made some. (I'm at 5 R teams and learned there was a 15 limit in U). |
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Cortelll
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 21, 2004 - 17:41 |
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I would love to do a playing test, but I live in Findlay, OH, United States, population 40,000 and I bet you I am the only Bloodbowl players around to have a team!!
I do not wish to enforce my idea by getting signatures, I just wanted to know if other people also thought that vampires could use a little twiking to make them more competitive. It's prob just because I have been a Vampire Fan ever since the team started. I just think that the deserve a chance to be more competitive and I think a little toning down of the OFAB rule will give them that little edge to be able to succedd in the field.
BadMrMojo
Of course you are going to find that most teams that played 7 games have a winning percetange, that's because after you play 4-5 games your team is distroyed, either by your or your opponent, so most teams get retired before that. And at TR over 200 vampires are superhard to play with.
Let's say that you got a super thall with 200SPP 6/4/4/7 Block, Dogde, Guard, Mighty Blow, Tackle, your vampire had to move first because he is the ball carrier and you have to get him out of harms way because he is going to be tackle near the goal line, you roll the OFAB (1), use a reroll (1), now you are going to lose the ball if you just say there and your vampire will go to the bench, the other team will pick up the ball and score, now your super thrall is the only thrall that have save the play, you put your vampire there, bing, bang, bung, Thrall dead by your own vampire, ST 4, block, dogde, didn't save that thrall, no armor roll necesary, next one you move, another vampire (1), you kill another thrall, you are down to 2 players, both dead in two moves and the other players didn't do anything. Now a ST5 player rolls a (1) and he's just bone head, really big deal. With OFAB, if you fail that first you have to move your vampire, then you have a direct injury roll to one of your thralls, and 3rd you might lose a players just because you roll a 1, you could have been sorrounded by enemies and you might have to make a dogde roll also, maybe you had to dodge several times to get to a thrall which might have saved the life of your vampires, but that thrall could easily died or get injured. If you lose an average of 1 thrall a game, either Injury of death, at TR200 or higher, they cost 40k to replace.. you do not make that much money so that's why you don't see many vampire teams at TR200 because it is really hard to get there and stay there. I just think that they are being treated unfair, and I might be wrong, but it least I tested my point of view and I am glad that I am not the only one that thinks an OFAB is in order. I hope that this threat has helped people out. Thanks Mr. Galak for having an unbias view, and for helping out with the subject. |
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Cortelll
Bloodbowl World Cup
Vamps Group |
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Wukong
Joined: Nov 21, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 21, 2004 - 18:38 |
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Cortelll has a point!
I don't play vamps myself since I think they suck (pun intended), but OFAB is too nasty as is.
OK, I think it's funny to see the other teams players do the job for you, but really...
Let the poor vamps just stun, or possibly KO, their thralls. That's punishment enough! |
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nazerdemus
Joined: Nov 02, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 21, 2004 - 18:45 |
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There were some tips in other threads about vampires and ive played some good vampire teams ( with pro ) and some bad vampire teams ( without pro ) They are at the extreme of the slow start good finish teams , the only thing I would do is give the vamps a point of movement , so they can 2 turn without gfi , and fluff wise vampires have that weird flowy movement which is quicker than 6 in my opinion( its how they catch their victims ) |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 21, 2004 - 18:55 |
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| Cortelll wrote: | | ... I live in Findlay, OH, United States, population 40,000 |
Funny. I grew up outside of Oberlin. I used to go camping in Findlay all the time. Small world.
| Quote: | BadMrMojo
Of course you are going to find that most teams that played 7 games have a winning percetange, that's because after you play 4-5 games your team is distroyed, either by your or your opponent, so most teams get retired before that. And at TR over 200 vampires are superhard to play with. |
So you're saying that most teams over 7 games have a winning percentage because they get destroyed before they get to 7 games. Therefore they win because they've been destroyed? I don't get it.
Also, you were using these same teams to generate your statistics. I was just pointing out that your statistics don't necessarily have a sound basis, since it appeared that you were throwing them out as a rebuttal to Galak's comments.
If I was incorrect in that assumption, sorry about that. I'm just pointing out some things you should probably address before continuing to promote a change. |
_________________
Ta-Ouch! of BloodBowl
Condensed Guide for Newbies |
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Cortelll
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 21, 2004 - 19:12 |
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I meant to say that teams that get to 7 games played withough having suffered many player loses and have a winning percentage keep their teams active, because players still play can win game with those teams, now if your team has played 7 games and you lost 6 players in those games, and you are down to 8-9 players, then you will prob retire the team and start over again because you will have a high TR 150-170 range, and the teams that you will play against will be much stronger and you will get beat easily
Your assuption was probably right, you can make many assumptions based on those team facts, but the matter in fact is that Vamps suck (literaty). I meant no disrespect as I always appreciate all your forum replies, and you were right about the issues before addressing a change.
My brother made this suggestion:
OFAB:A player with this characteristic must occasionally feed on the blood of the living. At the start of any action, roll a D6. On a 2+ the player may carry out the action as normal. On a '1', however, the player is overcome with a desire for blood. However if there are no thralls in a square next to the player the vampire suffers from fatige and loses the action (like bonehead he does not have a tackle zone, or can intercept a pass, or help in a block) this is not a turnover, the vampire remins fatige till he declares a new action in the next turn or during a new kick off. If there is a thrall in a square next to the vampire the thrall is immediately bitten by the vampire, this is a strait injury roll (in case of KO or injury,this is not a turnover).
Let me know what you think about that one
Thanks, |
_________________
Cortelll
Bloodbowl World Cup
Vamps Group |
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