mstrchef13
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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 Posted:
Feb 02, 2005 - 21:33 |
 
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| sk8bcn wrote: | Well mstr, you can't say that these stats are correct and countered my the number of games because game selection is the majority so they ARE biased.
ps: didn't read anything else so doesn't take any position on the topic. |
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of this. I used the statistics from this website to support my argument, such that it was. If I claimed at any time that these stats were showing absolute yes or no answers, then that would have been a mistake, but I don't think I did.
My position has been refined to these points:
1) Everyone defines success differently, so you and I probably can't agree anyway.
2) The win percentages from the website show that bashy teams win and lose, and dodgy teams win and lose, so no conclusions can be drawn from that.
3) Coaching skill is more relevant to how successful a team is than its race.
4) My teams are not successful because I admit I suck as a coach.
5) Towson and Owings Mills are part of the Baltimore metro area, and I live outside of that, and if I didn't have family responsibilities I would dearly love to play in a tabletop BB league once again. |
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sarik
Joined: Oct 23, 2004
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Feb 02, 2005 - 22:28 |
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I think that bashy/agility team aren't the real key for the discussion. I think that the key are skills.
Basically agility teams cant do a long term challenge vs bashy teams because they cant survive vs skills like "guard, MB, claw, rsc, multiple block, dauntless, tackle". Soon or later they will meet a fatal match where their players will suffer a massacre.
I think that there is not a single race capable of having a decent defense and agility without an extrenmly high luck with dices on skill developement. There is at least 1 dark elf team with lots of guard, Str4, Dex5, MB etc.
Right now the only team with a regular player type is chaos with their beastmen 6 3 3 8 but they lack somekind of thrower and catcher. Their blitzers are over strenghed without any use for real running.
Humans are a nice mix but their big guy moves they out of the fact of being versatile and their catchers are too weak.
In my oppinion my medium race should have.
2 Catchers 7 3 4 8 G A Catch
4 Blitzers 6 3 3 9 G S Block
2 Throwers 6 3 3 8 G P Pass
12 Linemans 6 3 3 8 G
Mage + Apot
Nothing really good but they will we a versatile team.
It's just my little contribution to the topic. |
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AvatarDM
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 02, 2005 - 23:16 |
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Uhm, Agility teams can avoid beeing hit with block dodge sidestep players... |
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monboesen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2005 - 23:32 |
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Some data from a fumbbl league that initially had a decent spread of teams (but always a slight majority of bashers as I recall).
We have now played out 7 seasons and the tournement has been won by dwarves 4 of those. The least bashy team to win was humans in the very first season. And we even cut down to a maximum of 1 dp per team.
I agree with the point of view that bashers will win out in the long run (given equal coaching skill). It will come to a point where almost all the high TR teams in a tournement are bashers and agility teams cannot enter the higher levels. They will be crushed before it happens. You might get the occasional fluke season where some agility team goes all the way, but it will be rare.
Link
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=663 |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 14:19 |
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Oh my gosh, I was unable to understand my own original post. Well what I wanted to point out, was that since
-people choose their game
-generally tends to avoid bashers if they aren't themselves,
you can't compare games so lightly.
On that basis you could even compare nurglings to Chaos.
To get a more accurate winning percentage, you shoud take in consideration the average number of games played against each group
For exemple
let us suppose that there is only 3 races: elf, human, chaos, khemris
Suppose chaos teams have that result:
elf 7/0/3
humans 13/5/2
chaos 10/5/10
Khemri 5/5/30
total: 35/15/50 win % 42%
but vs bashers: 15/10/40 roughly 18%
vs elves 70%
humans : 72%
if games would be played equally, chaos would be at: (42+18+70+72)/4=50%
That was only what I meant
| mstrchef13 wrote: | | sk8bcn wrote: | Well mstr, you can't say that these stats are correct and countered my the number of games because game selection is the majority so they ARE biased.
ps: didn't read anything else so doesn't take any position on the topic. |
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of this. I used the statistics from this website to support my argument, such that it was. If I claimed at any time that these stats were showing absolute yes or no answers, then that would have been a mistake, but I don't think I did.
My position has been refined to these points:
1) Everyone defines success differently, so you and I probably can't agree anyway.
2) The win percentages from the website show that bashy teams win and lose, and dodgy teams win and lose, so no conclusions can be drawn from that.
3) Coaching skill is more relevant to how successful a team is than its race.
4) My teams are not successful because I admit I suck as a coach.
5) Towson and Owings Mills are part of the Baltimore metro area, and I live outside of that, and if I didn't have family responsibilities I would dearly love to play in a tabletop BB league once again. |
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mstrchef13
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 14:47 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | Oh my gosh, I was unable to understand my own original post. Well what I wanted to point out, was that since
-people choose their game
-generally tends to avoid bashers if they aren't themselves,
you can't compare games so lightly.
On that basis you could even compare nurglings to Chaos.
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Point taken. Unfortunately, the site doesn't provide that data (at least not where I can find it). I'm still not convinced that a TR 240 Chaos team will beat a TR 240 Dark Elf team on a regular basis. The problem is that after the game, the TR 240 Chaos team goes up to TR 250, but the Dark Elf team goes down to 215 even though they won 3-1 because the blitzer with 3-4 skills died. So, even though the Chaos team lost the match, they came out of it more successfully than the Dark Elf team that did win. I think that bashy teams survive to higher TR better than dodgy teams, but I don't believe that in an even TR match with evenly skilled coaches that they have an advantage in winning the game.
I've said enough on this. Time for me to start attending the Academy so that I don't need to whine about getting killed all the time and can actually learn how to play better. |
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Bascrebolder
Joined: Nov 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 15:04 |
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mstrchef13
wise words there! Couldn't agree more! |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 03, 2005 - 15:50 |
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| mstrchef13 wrote: | | ...So, even though the Chaos team lost the match, they came out of it more successfully than the Dark Elf team that did win... |
I'm just being nitpicky here but generally winning is considered success and losing is considered a failure. Yes, there are more ways to define it and yes, losing a good player is a blow to the team but it really depends upon the coach's priorities.
One could just as easily say, "But the DE coach had fun and the Chaos coach didn't, so DEs are more successful than Chaos."
I'm not even really disagreeing with you. Just saying you could strengthen your argument a bit by taking into account that people have wildly differing opinions on what consititutes success and failure. |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 19:41 |
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The problem is that in a league, that Chaos team and that DE team will meet again...and the next time the DE will take some more cas and lose the game.
Idon't that qualifies as success by many people's standards. |
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Grumbledook
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 19:49 |
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its all about the winning
neither is better at it than the other
this topic is lame |
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mstrchef13
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 20:36 |
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| Deadshane wrote: | | Lets sum it up, are bashy teams stronger? Lets discuss for one last time..... |
I've decided to end the discussion once and for all. I went back to the original post that started this thread.
The answer is... yes, bashy teams are stronger. On average, their players have a higher average ST than non-bashy teams. Check, please.
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 20:48 |
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Yup, bashy teams are stronger and agi teams more agile. :p |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 21:15 |
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| mstrchef13 wrote: | | Deadshane wrote: | | Lets sum it up, are bashy teams stronger? Lets discuss for one last time..... |
I've decided to end the discussion once and for all. I went back to the original post that started this thread.
The answer is... yes, bashy teams are stronger. On average, their players have a higher average ST than non-bashy teams. Check, please.
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That will be $58.00 for not doing this sooner |
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tautology
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 21:33 |
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Its not about whether bash or agility is better, its about the particular team rosters.
Chaos Dwarf, Wood Elf and Skaven are all very strong rosters at any TR.
These are the best rosters (IMO) and can win consistently against ANY other team (be they bashy or agile). Please don't bring up fummbl stats to refute this, because in order to win (even with these "power rosters") you MUST BE A GOOD COACH! This is far more important than roster strength.
There are other good rosters too, of course...Undead up to TR210 or so, Orcs are solid, Dwarves are very good and can be real contenders if they get a few +Stat players. Chaos becomes a legitimate threat around 220 or so but they are quite weak below 160.
It's all about rosters and coaching. Pick a team that you understand, coach them well and you will win.
Just my 2 cents, of course |
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TheLegend
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 03, 2005 - 23:04 |
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I think that at top end team ratings the advantage goes to the teams with the higher AV because the elf / skaven team is going to have a harder time keeping their superstars on the field. |
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