SkiJunkie
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 09, 2005 - 06:50 |
 
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 09, 2005 - 07:34 |
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| Imerikol wrote: | | That is why science is only concerned with things that can be demonstrated with positive proof. |
Actually, this statement is wrong. The fact that you said this is rather strange, anyway, since it doesn't align with the rest of what you said.
If we use Popper's definition of science, or what makes "good" science, then it is something that can be "falisified", i.e. disproved by doing something that does not fit within the theory, or by supplying empirical evidence to the contrary.
For instance, if you take Maxwell's laws of electronics, those have been added to by falsification of those that are wrong. For instance:
| Ampère's Law a.k.a. Maxwell's Fourth Law wrote: | | rot(B/µ) = J |
Experimentation proved this to be wrong (eventually, it was considered correct with empiric proof backing it up for quite a while). Maxwell then amended it by adding "+ epsylon * the derivative of E to t".
The same goes for Newton's Law of Motion. The one taught in high school is technically wrong, though you would never be able to tell in everyday use. It's when you get into relativistic states that Newton's Law as is no longer applies.
Only something which can be proved wrong is "good science". The existence of the Loch Ness monster cannot be disproved (as you said). Therefore it is not good science.
Saying that the Loch Ness monster does not exist might be considered good science, since this can be disproved by finding the actual monster.
This is Popper's opinion. Take it as you will.  (I bet some philosophy student is going to come along now and tell me how badly I misinterpreted all of this.) |
_________________
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Last edited by Mezir on %b %09, %2005 - %07:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 09, 2005 - 07:38 |
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| Macavity wrote: | | Imerikol, are you familiar with the term Tautology? It's like a scientific theory in that neither have been proved for certain, but a good scientific theory has a POSSIBLE disproof. (Interestingly enough, some things labelled theories are tautologies; that's another topic) |
I've never heard that definition of a tautology before. I thought a tautology was unnecessarily saying something twice. "White snow" for instance (bad example since snow need not be white...).
Looked it up in the dictionary and that's the definition given there, too. |
_________________
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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Mar 09, 2005 - 08:00 |
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Don't worry guys, in case you were feeling bad about being wrong, it may help you feel better to know that I was wrong once too.  |
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mUst
Joined: Jan 05, 2004
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Mar 09, 2005 - 08:01 |
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interesting what people talk about on a bb forum, i know it says "off topic" and i dont mind one bit, but still it puzzles me that people think about such things and need to share em with all us "do i dare say it" nerds. but anyways i dont think im wrong ever, im better then all else, and i dont cherrypick "like hell i do" and then suddenly it comes to mind, this has absolutely nothing to do with this, this is just my little world where i retrete after the RL world is getting too annoying to live in. here i can be whomever i want "back on topic i guess" and say whatever ideals i wish i had, but i rarely live up to em in the real world anyways, tbh in the realworld im an ass, i am one of those that wish the worst for my kin just so i can get the best for meself, hate to be that way and wish i was as good as some people i know, but im not.
I dont like being wrong, and i sertainly dont like loosing, thats why i fight like a maddog to win "rl" and be better then others, but it so very rarely happens, i always end up 2ft short of victory "be that womans or work" i so strive to find a thing i exel at but so far no luck.
"just to give an idea" The other day one nextdoor got hit by a car and sadly the first thing that came to my mind was not "what a pity, he was a good friend" the first thing that came to my mind was, whos gonna get that cool car of his" i regret i think that way and wish i was different and "better" but im not, i just feel it in my gut all the time.
"this was NOT to offend people" cant help the way i feel. |
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Wizard
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
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Mar 09, 2005 - 08:17 |
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I was pondering to statemanets made by my class mates the other day:
One was "Knowledge is power"
The other was "Absolute Power corrupts Absolutly"
So, the Knowladgable can only be defeated by becoming Knowladgable yourself...
Just a random thought that seemed to fit with MacCavitys approach to his self realisation about most people being idiots... |
_________________
"As long as one person lives in darkness then it seems to be a responsibility to tell other people." |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 09, 2005 - 08:24 |
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Well as i once heard as well...
The more intelligent you are, ther more you realise how stupid you are!
and...
The more you have, the more you want!
/me buys Macavity 2 drinks to make BMM look cheap  |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 09, 2005 - 14:30 |
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/me already looks cheap.... and easy.
Kudos to mUst for hitting on another important aspect of all this. User names are pretty much anonymous. Sure, a few people know each other in real life situations but for the most part, none of you really have any clue whether I'm a pimply 14 year old kid from Argentina, a 250 lb. mother of 6 from Texas or actually a 31 year old geek from Boston.
I can say whatever I like in chat or on the boards because the consequences of my words simply won't affect my actual daily life. It's a kind of freedom which, while a bit liberating, can easily lead to the sort of assinine behavior that people just wouldn't do in a real life situation - simply because they can do so and get away with it!
I think it's fascinating that mUst is claiming the opposite. I think that people who would consider themselves "better" (warning: relative term there) people online than in real life would be a rarity. |
_________________
Ta-Ouch! of BloodBowl
Condensed Guide for Newbies
Last edited by BadMrMojo on %b %09, %2005 - %16:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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Nichodemus
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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Mar 09, 2005 - 14:50 |
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Good topic Its my oppinion that people who spend alot of time online generally spend more time contemplating things, hence is better at arguing theories than alot of people i meet offline. For example i had a political discussion about capitalism vs socialism at university, with a guy i study computer science (rough translation) with. This was the first time i hear some sound arguments for it, besides the usual i want more money "argument", and we agreed to disagree in the end. But the fact that he had thought it through made respect his point of view. To this day i have never met anyone else who could really argue for pure capitalism, altho i suspect someone on fumbbl probably can To sum it up, my hypothesis is we have spend alot of time alone, and therefore have time to contemplate our reasons for our actions |
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Nichodemus
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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Mar 09, 2005 - 14:54 |
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Wow mUst, you're as bad as me Not that i dont wish the best for my fellow men, i would if i cared enough, but humans have never really interested me that much :p I usually forget about em, about 10 mins after they leave my sight. But since you already know your problem, i think you could work on it |
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bardulf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 09, 2005 - 15:13 |
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Hi:
As some one had said, no one knows all the truth. so unfortunatelly most of the things u know can be wrong.
example: years ago people think earth was plain.
If some one tells u the truth u can do two things.
a) accept it
b) denny it
In any case u will need a powerfull reason to stay in one side or another.
(remeber that coperinicus retract him self )
But one thing is always true or false , so sooner or later u will discover if u were wrong or right.
(unfortunattely later can be hundreds of years).
So who cares about if some thing is true or false if it doesent matter to your life.
Does your life will be better by following certain values,miths.. etc?
may be yes, or no
Does your life will be better if u know which numbers will appear in next lotto?
Ofcourse!
As I began my post i dont have all the truth and i can be totally wrong.
But in my point of view i just live my live. |
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CorporateSlave3
Joined: Feb 07, 2004
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Mar 09, 2005 - 15:24 |
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As far as I can tell (and I may be wrong  ) the reason 'we' think we know so much, is that most of us do, relatively speaking anyhow (I make no claim to the accuracy of this knowledge, merely that it is present in the sense of 'things we have learned'). What most of us then fail to easily realize though, is that while we may know quite a bit about something, we know virtually nothing about almost all other things. (Elephant's toenail and all that). However, it seems to me to be human nature to try and frame all new things we come across in reference to what we already understand, even if (though) it causes us to 'stretch' reality a bit (a lot).
In the area of the US that I live in, I have noticed a very disturbing trend - people wanting something and therefore linking their desire to reality, although such a relationship is obviously ludicrous to any outside observer. The 'I want this to be true, therefore it is true' seems to be the worst manifestation of the issue Macavity brings up...people thinking they know so much that whatever they want must therefore be the honest truth. The terrible part is that this sort of person is virutally impossible to debate with, as nothing will sway them from what they 'know' to be true.
I think Obi-Wan said it best: "A great many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view."*
I try very (somewhat) hard to see things from other's point of view when possible, and while I'd like to think that this makes me a more pleasant and fair person, truthfully it also causes a certain (large) amount of indecision at times (usually), as the realization dawns that both points of view in question have some validity. At least it keeps things interesting, and so far seems to have garnered me some (small) measure of respect (frustration) from those around me.
*Bloody hell I hope I got that quote right. Shame I'm too lazy to actually pop the DVD in and verify it before possibly looking like a combination arse/nerd... |
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Renegade
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
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Mar 09, 2005 - 15:33 |
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| mUst wrote: | interesting what people talk about on a bb forum, i know it says "off topic" and i dont mind one bit, but still it puzzles me that people think about such things and need to share em with all us "do i dare say it" nerds. but anyways i dont think im wrong ever, im better then all else, and i dont cherrypick "like hell i do" and then suddenly it comes to mind, this has absolutely nothing to do with this, this is just my little world where i retrete after the RL world is getting too annoying to live in. here i can be whomever i want "back on topic i guess" and say whatever ideals i wish i had, but i rarely live up to em in the real world anyways, tbh in the realworld im an ass, i am one of those that wish the worst for my kin just so i can get the best for meself, hate to be that way and wish i was as good as some people i know, but im not.
I dont like being wrong, and i sertainly dont like loosing, thats why i fight like a maddog to win "rl" and be better then others, but it so very rarely happens, i always end up 2ft short of victory "be that womans or work" i so strive to find a thing i exel at but so far no luck.
"just to give an idea" The other day one nextdoor got hit by a car and sadly the first thing that came to my mind was not "what a pity, he was a good friend" the first thing that came to my mind was, whos gonna get that cool car of his" i regret i think that way and wish i was different and "better" but im not, i just feel it in my gut all the time.
"this was NOT to offend people" cant help the way i feel. |
-Ren passes mUst a rope and a scouts guide to knot tying.
Straight from the heart, although I wouldn't actively seek to own a dead mans car I did find great satisfaction in stoving an Iraqi's head in after he pointed an AK variant in my face.
We're not all perfect it would seem.
-And why anyone would believe in bullshit like religion is beyond me.
They say being close to death is like touching god, absolute crap. The ownly thing I was touching as an RPG whistled past my head was cloth as I shit my pants - and my life didn't flash before my eyes all I got was Elma Thud singing "Run squaddie, run squaddie, run, run <b>RUN!!!!!!!!!</b>" |
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AFK_Eagle
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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Mar 09, 2005 - 16:06 |
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CS3, you got your quote correct.
Imerikol: UFOs, Sasquatch, the Loch-ness monster, God... these are just a small list of things that will never be disproven, though they may or may not someday be positively affirmed.
I have confirmation! They do exist! Or, at least, they DID, exist, until massive niggles and RIP in just a couple games time caused the team's retirement. Until then, they were truly Unbelievable!, as were the two remakes of the team who had better records but nevertheless died just as horribly...
My IRL job is as a statistician, which means I know the absolute truth about both sides of any topic! If I analyze a pile of marbles, and 1/3 are white, 1/3 are black, and 1/3 are colorless, then I can say with absolute conviction that 2/3 of the marbles have color! (Or 2/3 are not black, 2/3 are not white, etc...) Thus, when my boss comes to me and says "I need statistical proof that my point of view is correct" I can use the exact same set of numbers as for his boss who wants proof that the same point of view is wrong.
Numbers can say anything you want...how else do you think Geico can say they have a 97% approval rating? They simply ask all their clients, "Are you totally happy, mostly happy, somewhat happy....etc...show-a-single-speck-of-happiness happy, or not happy at all?" Then they simply add the totals of anybody who isn't "totally unhappy" and proclaim they are this outstanding company, despite some of the peeps not really thinking that highly of them but falling under the "single speck" category, thus are lumped in with the "totally happy" crowd. For all we know, 96% of the people are "specks", and we could just as easily say "99% are not completely satisfied".
Not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand, but thought I'd throw it out there, just relieving a little frustration from the job. |
_________________
Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
Founder of the E.L.F.--These elves will play anybody! |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 09, 2005 - 16:19 |
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| Renegade wrote: | | We're not all perfect it would seem. |
Nope. But striving for perfection is a relatively natural impulse. Unfortunately it frequently involves trying to redefine "perfect" to fit our own current state, rather than actually trying to better our current state.
In other words, it's easier for us to claim to be correct than it is for us to actually objectively question our own beliefs and understanding. This is the sort of thing that leads to all the flame wars we've been getting, I think.
Nothing to do with your comment, really. Just a sidenote it made me think of.
| Renegade wrote: | | -And why anyone would believe in bullshit like religion is beyond me. |
But does that mean that anyone who does believe in said bullshit is wrong only because you can't understand it? I don't like tomatoes. I can't understand why people like them. Yet I see no need to keep others from eating them. Why is that any different?
{ edit: offensive comment removed. I didn't mean "ignorance" with any bad intent, simply as a lack of understanding - its actual definition. No flaming intended. Sorry. } |
_________________
Ta-Ouch! of BloodBowl
Condensed Guide for Newbies
Last edited by BadMrMojo on %b %09, %2005 - %17:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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