Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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 Posted:
Mar 17, 2006 - 18:01 |
 
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| tadgoraucymru wrote: | | Macavity wrote: | | I have a "How to learn Welsh in 3 months" book! |
a gwnest ti? |
Dude. I've only had it 3 years... I haven't READ the thing! |
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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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maxlongstreet
Joined: Oct 18, 2005
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Mar 17, 2006 - 22:23 |
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Perhaps I'm biased as a native speaker, but I think English is the richest and most fascinating language spoken in the world. It's also the most illogical.
Both of these things are true because of the way English came about. The language is really a hybrid of Anglo-Saxon Old English (which had a bunch of different dialects, but lets not complicate things), the Scandinavian language of the vikings, and Norman French. In other words, English is a combination of the languages of its three biggest invaders (with a touch of latin thrown in). Sadly, the Celtic languages of Great Britain's original inhabitants had only a small influence of the formation of English.
American English received additional ingredients from Spanish and Native American sources. While some in Great Britain look down on American English, it should be noted that some phrases that Americans use (Fall for autumn, for instance) are originally British expressions that were dropped in Great Britain and kept in this country.
At any rate, it's the wealth of sources that gives English both its huge, rich vocabulary, and its frustrating lack of consistency. It's the reason why there's 10 different words for everything in English. It should be noted that when the Norman French conquered England, they made French the official language of government, but left the common people pretty much alone. This is why words about governments, orginaztions and concepts are almost invariably "French" words, while words about concrete objects are almost always Anglo-Saxon or Viking. [Compare words like government/university/institution to words like hill/rock/sky]. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2006 - 22:31 |
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It's also why the meat of animals is the French word for animal (or corruption thereof) in most cases. |
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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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MrMojo
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
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Mar 18, 2006 - 07:03 |
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| pizzamogul wrote: | I've tried a couple different questions out on people this morning, and the best way to get an English speaker to respond in the form you want is to ask, "Which of your parents' sons/daughters are you? 1st, 2nd, etc..."
Without that clarification added at the end, most people tilt their heads to one side and look at you like a dog that just heard a strange noise. Either that, or their responses are unexpected (i.e. - "favorite").
On the plus side, there's a dozen-or-so Hoosiers walking around saying "which-th" now. |
This is definitely interesting. Astounding even! I hope I have started a snowball effect here and soon all of the english speaking world will ask "which-th son are you?"
No but really, it just goes to show that without the clarification the question you posed would not have the meaning we wanted and you'd need a compound question to fill it up. I wonder what those anglosaxons were doing when they missed this little part in their language development?
| EvolveToAnarchism wrote: | | "Are you the eldest?" or "Are you the youngest?" with the assumption that they'd elaborate on the answer is a common way of doing it. |
But again, without the elaboration or going around the real question, we get nowhere. |
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Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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Mar 18, 2006 - 07:47 |
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i guess the thing is that unless you see a question as being an important one te be able to ask, you don't invent words that make it simpler to ask.
Mostly, people would ask a question like "Do you have any brothers or sisters?", and although the answer would not be "I am the <n>th son/daughter.", it would contain information about his/her siblings which maybe is the important thing to know.
The same problem comes up translating between any two languages, there are always words/terms which do not easily translate, and have to be described with several words in the other language to even come close to the same meaning. |
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lauth81
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
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Mar 18, 2006 - 08:24 |
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| MrMojo wrote: | I came across this in Wikipedia recently and was amazed. It seems that English is entirely lacking in some grammatical constructions other languages take for granted.
Answer me this, you native English speakers.
"How would you ask a boy who has several brothers 'which' (or 'which-th'!) son of his parents he is, such that his reply would be something like: 'I am the third son'?" |
But that´s the whole point about different languages. They don´t just have a different vocabulary or word-order structure. Languages differ greatly in grammatical constructions. Take a look into (almost) any linguistics textbook and you may find lots of this stuff. For example, some languages don´t even have grammatical subjects. Some don´t have a nominative/accusative, but a thing called ergativity. And if you want something grammatical only English has, you may take a look at something called construction grammar. |
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Ironik
Joined: Jun 28, 2004
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Mar 18, 2006 - 11:15 |
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| Gryphius wrote: | | Finnish language has no future tense. So we don't need to promise to do anything in the future? =) Or maybe for our seers the future was as clear as the present? |
So how do you say " I will play a match in two hours?"
Thank you |
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Fama
Joined: Feb 09, 2005
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Mar 18, 2006 - 11:25 |
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Actually, we kinda have it. We use preesens (dunno what it's in English), but it's the thing that's happening as is.
"Minä pelaan kahden tunnin päästä."
"I play in 2 hours." (it's the same as "I'll play")
Or you can say
"Minä tulen pelaamaan kahden tunnin päästä."
"I will come to playing in 2 hourse."
But that just sounds stupid.
(or is it "minä tulen pelaaman"?) |
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lord_real
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2006 - 12:07 |
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| Quote: |
But that´s the whole point about different languages. They don´t just have a different vocabulary or word-order structure. Languages differ greatly in grammatical constructions. Take a look into (almost) any linguistics textbook and you may find lots of this stuff. For example, some languages don´t even have grammatical subjects. Some don´t have a nominative/accusative, but a thing called ergativity. And if you want something grammatical only English has, you may take a look at something called construction grammar.
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Thats why its so funny to read asian signs and instructionsbooks that have used a babelfish to translate mandarin/japanse into english.  |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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Mar 18, 2006 - 13:15 |
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"In your immediate family, which son are you?" isn't too ambiguous, since the context is explicit. Of course, a reply could be "I am the good son." |
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A censor is a man who knows more than he thinks you ought to. - Granville Hicks |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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Mar 19, 2006 - 22:33 |
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| xcver wrote: | THrow in a couple of sisters and it get's even more funny 
"Which is your sibling birth order number in reference to your parents?" |
| pizzamogul wrote: | I've tried a couple different questions out on people this morning, and the best way to get an English speaker to respond in the form you want is to ask, "Which of your parents' sons/daughters are you? 1st, 2nd, etc..."
Without that clarification added at the end, most people tilt their heads to one side and look at you like a dog that just heard a strange noise. Either that, or their responses are unexpected (i.e. - "favorite").
On the plus side, there's a dozen-or-so Hoosiers walking around saying "which-th" now. |
xcver and pizzamogul: Toss in a few divorces as well as some stepbrothers and -sisters and you won't be getting even close to the intended answer. Nice try, though.
| Fama wrote: | | Actually, we kinda have it. We use preesens (dunno what it's in English), but it's the thing that's happening as is. |
"Preesens" = "The present tense"
"Imperfekti" = "The past tense"
Corrected versions of your examples:
| Corrected version of Fama's text wrote: |
"Minä pelaan kahden tunnin päästä."
= "I play after 2 (more) hours." (it's the same as "I'll play")
Or you can say
"Minä tulen pelaamaan kahden tunnin päästä."
= "I come to playing after 2 (more) hours."
But that just sounds stupid. |
Or
"Aion pelata kahden tunnin päästä", which sounds better IMO.
= "I intend to play after 2 (more) hours."
| IRSWalker wrote: | | Fama wrote: | No sex & no future  |
French, the language of love.
Finnish, the language of marriage.  |
LoL! |
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Korenn
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 19, 2006 - 22:48 |
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| xcver wrote: | THrow in a couple of sisters and it get's even more funny
"Which is your sibling birth order number in reference to your parents?" |
I like this one best... so a generalisation would be that the translation of which-th is 'which is your order number' . not something you'd use in normal conversation |
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