pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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 Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:35 |
 
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| z3d wrote: | | pac wrote: |
| Quote: | | but if we reset the league and everyone will get an elf team, what will I do with my "wonder" claws? |
Why would they all get elf teams? By all reports, 5.0 means less income and more on-pitch death. Doesn't sound like an elf-balling paradise to me … |
more on pitch death? how? as i remember claw+MB+PO has better cas rate then the old claw+rsc...wait you can have fend to prevent PO. of course juggernaut counters fend, but its now claw+MB+PO+jugger … |
More on-pitch death <i>in general</i> and <i>in total</i>. (Neither you nor I were talking about Chaos. We were talking about Necros, Orcs, Dwarves, and elves.) Most teams in 4.0 do not have access to Claw/RSC at all, and even those that do need two doubles on one player to get it. In 5.0 many teams have access to Claw/MB/PO (with just one, or no, doubles), and every team except elves has easy access to MB/PO - another very powerful combo.
Is the strongest combo available in 5.0 weaker than the strongest in 4.0? Yes. Are combos that are <i>almost as strong</i> much much more widely available? Yes.
Not to mention that the 5.0 apothecary is less effective.
Finally, my statement was, '<b>By all reports</b>, 5.0 means less income and more on-pitch death.' Which is to say that even if you set aside the theory which suggests that it should be bloodier on the pitch, the actual evidence from those who are playing it <i>also</i> indicates that this actually proves to be the case in practice!
And I'm not sure what the rest of your post is about, since we weren't talking about Chaos teams (in your original post and my reply to it). |
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Last edited by pac on %b %13, %2006 - %13:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:39 |
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| Tophat wrote: | | Qaz : Im sure there are a few chaos coachs that wouldnt mind having a few rookie dark elfs on their roster . |
not if I need two skills for it. I'd rather have a block+guard one. |
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z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:51 |
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pac, never mind. as usual, we can't talk normally. |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:51 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | | Tophat wrote: | | Qaz : Im sure there are a few chaos coachs that wouldnt mind having a few rookie dark elfs on their roster . |
not if I need two skills for it. I'd rather have a block+guard one. |
Well if you had a choice of two teams
CW block ,guard
CW block ,guard
CW block ,guard
CW block ,guard
beastman block,guard
beastman block,guard
beastman block,guard
beastman block,guard
beastman block,guard
beastman block,guard
beastman block,guard
against
CW block ,guard
beastman block,guard
CW block ,guard
beastman block,guard
CW block ,guard
beastman block,guard
CW block ,guard
beastman block,guard
beastman block guard
beastman ,extra arms ,twoheads
beastman ,extra arms ,twoheads
Id give the second team a better chance of actually winning the match . Diversity is an important trait for teams . |
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Last edited by Tophat on %b %13, %2006 - %13:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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RandomOracle
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:53 |
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| Tophat wrote: |
Id give the second team a better chance of actually winning the match . Diversity is an important trait for teams . |
Having 5 CWs also helps. |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:54 |
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| z3d wrote: | | pac, never mind. as usual, we can't talk normally. |
looks pretty normal to me
You say something
He disagrees and says why
You say you disagree and say why
Its called a discussion , pretty normal thing really.... |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:56 |
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| RandomOracle wrote: | | Tophat wrote: |
Id give the second team a better chance of actually winning the match . Diversity is an important trait for teams . |
Having 5 CWs also helps. |
yeah it does , time for a ninja edit  |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 13:59 |
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| z3d wrote: | | pac, never mind. as usual, we can't talk normally. |
Well, it would help if you replied to my posts (as I reply to yours), rather than trotting out the same old complaints without connection to what I or anyone else says. 
Many of my positions on LRB 5.0 have changed since we last discussed the topic, partly due to changes to the rules (eg, M access normal on Chaos Minos), partly due to reconsidering the implications of the rules (eg, the power of Juggernaut+Block to stop Wrestle from dominating), partly due to other people's arguments (eg, deathgerbil on the weakening of Chaos), and partly due to the evidence of those who have played with them a lot (eg, fen's experiences and the MBBL stats).
Have any of your positions changed? Or are you still just moaning that Claw on your Werewolves isn't overpowered enough for you any more? |
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chunky04
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:02 |
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Having played a fair number of LRB5 games (80+), I believe that the cashflow vs injury ratio is definitely lower than in LRB4, even with ageing taken into consideration. With inducements and the way skills are directly costed, any permanent injury is pretty much an automatic firing offence as well.
As for Chaos, its still too early to call IMO. Far too many people are still in the killemall mindset that is one of the main factors in the poor record of Chaos teams early on. People try and play a bashy game without the tools for it then wonder why it doesn't work.
I personally think they screwed Chaos up completely in LRB5, but not for the most commonly used reasons.
fens post hits a lot of the problems.
Another is this - the biggest strength of the Chaos roster was the fact that pretty much every player had similar capabilities. The options the new mutations offer in terms of customisation work against this strength. In order to utilise it effectively you dilute one of your few advantages. If you veer away from that the skill selected needs to have multiple aspects, or provide a decent advantage that isn't available anywhere else. Since +AG effectively gives you a number of mutation equivalents, and over a decent period of time is quite likely to occur, if you spend those precious skill slots on them you are paying a big opportunity cost for them compared to other skills that are not as easily duplicated. |
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z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:04 |
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| Tophat wrote: |
Its called a discussion , pretty normal thing really.... |
you are right.
back to topic
LRB5 changes:
necro team is weaker in tourney enviroment with no dead+no income setup, because of weakened claw and lost catch of the wolves (regen doesn't matter) and with more expensive zombies, nerfed SF, etc.
in league environment they are stronger with S access wights (4 guard with normal rolls) and regen wolves (what a pity, that I always fail my regen rolls with my wolves in our league  ). |
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z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:06 |
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| pac wrote: | | z3d wrote: | | pac, never mind. as usual, we can't talk normally. |
Have any of your positions changed? Or are you still just moaning that Claw on your Werewolves isn't overpowered enough for you any more? |
pac, please, normal discussion, thx. |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:10 |
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| chunky04 wrote: |
Another is this - the biggest strength of the Chaos roster was the fact that pretty much every player had similar capabilities. The options the new mutations offer in terms of customisation work against this strength. In order to utilise it effectively you dilute one of your few advantages. If you veer away from that the skill selected needs to have multiple aspects, or provide a decent advantage that isn't available anywhere else. Since +AG effectively gives you a number of mutation equivalents, and over a decent period of time is quite likely to occur, if you spend those precious skill slots on them you are paying a big opportunity cost for them compared to other skills that are not as easily duplicated. |
well as well thoughif you do get a skill advantage i.e +ag is 40k (equivelent cost of having 2 skills anyway ) access . then on top of that you can then easily specialise him with no need for further good rolls, as he has access to more " play" skills without rolling further doubles |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:12 |
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| Quote: | | regen doesn't matter |
are you on crack ? |
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z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:16 |
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| Tophat wrote: | | Quote: | | regen doesn't matter |
are you on crack ? |
i want to say, that in a no-death tournament it's not an uber skill, as catch helped to score. |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:19 |
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| z3d wrote: | | Tophat wrote: | | Quote: | | regen doesn't matter |
are you on crack ? |
i want to say, that in a no-death tournament it's not an uber skill, as catch helps to score. |
In a tournement your opponent will look to take your wolf of the pitch as soon as possible .
Having the wolf return for the next drive whenhes been casualty will be a lot more likely to effect whether you win or lose than if you have catch on your werewolf . |
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