Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Aug 22, 2003 - 13:48 |
 
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Three random examples why I think the STR-formula is detached from reality:
| Code: | Woodelf-Lineelf: 7 3 3 7 Block 95k
Elf-Lineelf: 6 3 3 7 Block 70k
Mummy: 3 5 1 9 Block 133k
Mummy: 4 5 1 9 MA+1 143k
Goblin: 6 2 3 7 Catch 60k
Halfling: 6 2 3 6 Catch, MA+1 75k
Thrall: 6 3 3 7 Block, Tackle 75k |
I suggest to discard the current STR-formula and replace it by the LRB-TR minus cash and mng's. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2003 - 14:14 |
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Not going to happen. Suggestions of what to change are welcome, suggestions to simply scrap it are not. |
_________________
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The Finishing Touch |
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Surre
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2003 - 14:14 |
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I agree, but with one exeption. Niggling injuries should lower the TS with 1/6 of the players value. They will after all miss every sixth game and in those matches have no value. |
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Surre
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2003 - 14:15 |
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| Mr-Klipp wrote: | | Not going to happen. Suggestions of what to change are welcome, suggestions to simply scrap it are not. |
It would be nice to hear why it is so impossible for that to happen? |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2003 - 14:17 |
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Simple. We feel the str forumula gives a lot better results of predicting even matchups, and the statistics back this up. Suggestions of how to improve it are welcome, but we aren't going to scrap it and take a big step back. |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Surre wrote: | | I agree, but with one exeption. Niggling injuries should lower the TS with 1/6 of the players value. They will after all miss every sixth game and in those matches have no value. |
Did you even bother to check the formula before saying that?
-- Christer |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2003 - 15:30 |
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Christer, Klipp, no offense meant, but a formula which rates a worse player (Halfling with Catch and MA+1) 25% higher than a better player (Goblin with Catch, has AV7, Fling has AV 6, else they are identical) is pointless.
I appreciate what you have tried to accomplish, but I think the formula is somewhat random. |
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Surre
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2003 - 16:19 |
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| Christer wrote: | | Surre wrote: | | I agree, but with one exeption. Niggling injuries should lower the TS with 1/6 of the players value. They will after all miss every sixth game and in those matches have no value. |
Did you even bother to check the formula before saying that?
-- Christer |
I answered the first message, the actual formula have nothing to do with either that message or my message. It was a discussion of a simple way bypassing the formule, thus I don't need to know what the formula states since I didn't refere to it! |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Surre wrote: | | I answered the first message, the actual formula have nothing to do with either that message or my message. It was a discussion of a simple way bypassing the formule, thus I don't need to know what the formula states since I didn't refere to it! |
Well, given that the formula does what you are saying it should do, your comment looks a bit odd 
It's actually a weight of (5/6)^N where N is the number of niggling injuries on the player.
-- Christer |
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Surre
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2003 - 16:39 |
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Yeah, I see your point Christer. What I meant is that I do agree with Mirascael about that the formula can give odd results sometimes. But his proposal lacked the niggling injury adjustment.
When we are, almost, talking about it it seems strange to me that in the match record it states the teams rating, not TS. This can look strange when you see a team with 120 beats a team with 180. But in reality the 180-team had 4 guys missing the match and was a 100-team in the match. Shouldn't it be the TS in the match record instead of the rating? |
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Xeterog
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2003 - 17:04 |
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It would be nice to have both there TR/TS format.
Also, if you look in the stat's link above, you can find a table that clearly shows the Strength formula is much closer indicator of who's going to win a game than TR is. I don't know, but I'd bet TR would be almost as good if cash was factored out of the TR. Sure, it represents your ability to either buy a player for a game (but if you do, shouldn't that be added to your TR instead) or recover from a bad injury game (But again, that should be factored into the next match TR). |
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- Xeterog |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2003 - 00:30 |
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| Mirascael wrote: | Christer, Klipp, no offense meant, but a formula which rates a worse player (Halfling with Catch and MA+1) 25% higher than a better player (Goblin with Catch, has AV7, Fling has AV 6, else they are identical) is pointless.
I appreciate what you have tried to accomplish, but I think the formula is somewhat random. |
First off, a halfling with catch and + move is debatably better than a goblin, as he only has one point less av, and has a usefull skill the goblin lacks. Besides, what you are saying is that you can find a few questionable values and think that makes the whole system pointless, while all it means at most is that there are a few special cases that need closer looking at. Following your logic, I could point to a handfull of cases like Enron and the savings and loan scandals of years past and say that that is more than enough proof that capitalism is a flawed system and should be tossed out. What is needed is examination of the few remaning cases where there are odd values, not a rewrite because you find a few odd values. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2003 - 00:35 |
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According to LRB calculations:
Goblin with Catch: 40k + 6 SPPs = 40k/1000 + 6/5 = 5 TR
Halfling with +MA and Catch: 30k + 16 SPPs = 30k/1000 + 16/5 = 6 TR
In this formula, the halfling is just as skewed as in your example, Mirascael. So switching away from the current str formula wouldn't help.
Besides, +MA is better than a regular skill, so the halfling's actual strength TR-wise would be higher than the 6 calculated. |
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Propmaster
Joined: Aug 04, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2003 - 01:09 |
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What people are missing here is that you can't compare players on different race teams. The value of some players gold-wise is calculated to make the whole team work, not to conform to a certain standard. In the thrall example, for example, it must be taken into account that not only will the thrall play as his stats indicate, but that vampires are likely to wander by (from his own team) and kill him. Thus, even with his higher stats, he has les value than a halfling who will only be killed by the other team.
Regarding the goblin and halfling, you have to compare what that player means to his team, not what he means to another team. Given the rarity of a +MA halfling, he has a greater impact on his team than a normal goblin does on a normal goblin team.
Likewise, the mummy examples are very open to interpretation. Looking ahead one skill choice, for example, the +MA mummy can get block, while the block mummy will likely get another regular skill. What this means to the undead team is that there are more options open represented by the mummy. (I personally would always take +MA over str - block does no good if you can't get to the player who needs to be blocked).
I have found the system to be very effective and support it and those who came up with it. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2003 - 02:57 |
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| Mr-Klipp wrote: | | Mirascael wrote: | Christer, Klipp, no offense meant, but a formula which rates a worse player (Halfling with Catch and MA+1) 25% higher than a better player (Goblin with Catch, has AV7, Fling has AV 6, else they are identical) is pointless.
I appreciate what you have tried to accomplish, but I think the formula is somewhat random. |
First off, a halfling with catch and + move is debatably better than a goblin, as he only has one point less av, and has a usefull skill the goblin lacks. Besides, what you are saying is that you can find a few questionable values and think that makes the whole system pointless, while all it means at most is that there are a few special cases that need closer looking at. Following your logic, I could point to a handfull of cases like Enron and the savings and loan scandals of years past and say that that is more than enough proof that capitalism is a flawed system and should be tossed out. What is needed is examination of the few remaning cases where there are odd values, not a rewrite because you find a few odd values. |
Mr_Klipp, the Goblin here has Catch like the halfling. The only difference is that the Goblin is just better due to the higher armour. Thus, a functional STR-formula would rank him higher.
Your logic suggests, that I have thoroughly searched for examples. This simply is not true. Actually you could find many of these examples.
It's actually the same issue here as it has been with the MVP-bug. Everybody rejected that that bug would exist at all until Skijunkie confirmed it.
Anyhow, I'm not much interested in the STR-formula as I'm not obsessed with ranking, but the claim that it would be superior to TR is not justified (with the exception of leaving out mng's and cash and neglecting CL's and AC's, that is). |
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