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2011-08-08 23:31:05
38 votes, rating 5
38 votes, rating 5
London Riots
It is absolutely shocking what is happening in our great nation's capital over the last couple of days.
I hope that none of you have been caught up in or affected by the looting and rioting.
It is things like this that make me ashamed to be British.
I hope that none of you have been caught up in or affected by the looting and rioting.
It is things like this that make me ashamed to be British.
Comments
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-08-08 23:53:16
viva la revolution!
Posted by koadah on 2011-08-09 00:03:39
I saw the initial demonstration but got home before it turned nasty. None of us have been out since. My lad opted to skip boxing training tonight. :(
There's nothing political about it. It's just a bunch of criminals.
There's nothing political about it. It's just a bunch of criminals.
Posted by Chewie on 2011-08-09 00:25:09
Mindless idiots without a braincell between them.
Posted by paulhicks on 2011-08-09 02:03:48
My dad lives very close to where the main riots have been reported in London and says he hasn't noticed much. I live VERY VERY close to where the riots are [u]reported[/u] to be breaking out in birmingham and am yet to see sweet fa. In fact the main area where some media sources are claiming the riots are breaking out in birmingham is a famously white trash area that i have great difficulty in believing are coming out in support of the main cause of the riots... i'm guessing there was the usual pub fight and the media got over excited.
Also agree with Koadah (for some reason i alway thought you lived in USA bud.. you live n learn) that this isn't political. Seems like a lot of pissed off people full of the usual tensions that always flair up during times of economic decline exploding which frankly could have been caused by anything. I'm guessing most of the people busy breaking into shops and carrying away TV's couldn't even tell you the name of the guy who got shot (almost all legitmate reports seem to suggest this was an armed raid against dangerous armed people which ended in a shootout). It takes a hell of a lot in England for armed police to be deployed. Especially as no-one involved apears to be either muslim or an entirely innocent brazillian engineer trying to catch a train.
Also agree with Koadah (for some reason i alway thought you lived in USA bud.. you live n learn) that this isn't political. Seems like a lot of pissed off people full of the usual tensions that always flair up during times of economic decline exploding which frankly could have been caused by anything. I'm guessing most of the people busy breaking into shops and carrying away TV's couldn't even tell you the name of the guy who got shot (almost all legitmate reports seem to suggest this was an armed raid against dangerous armed people which ended in a shootout). It takes a hell of a lot in England for armed police to be deployed. Especially as no-one involved apears to be either muslim or an entirely innocent brazillian engineer trying to catch a train.
Posted by paulhicks on 2011-08-09 02:08:56
Lol and as soon as i finished writing that i checked the latest (reliable) updates to find a police station about 2 miles from me has been burnt down (insurance scam im betting ;P) and trouble seems to be spreading up here....
... hmm i really need a new TV. Cya'll in a bit...
... hmm i really need a new TV. Cya'll in a bit...
Posted by paulhicks on 2011-08-09 03:29:15
and now reports say it hasnt been burnt down but there has been a disturbance... by tomorrow morning im guessing it will turn out that actually they burnt the toast in the canteen but it was ok cuz they just scraped off the burnt bits...
Posted by Juff on 2011-08-09 05:00:32
This blog post reads like a letter printed in the Daily Mail.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 09:00:38
public stocks and whipping posts!
more seriously, if people chuck bricks at police, I think the police should be allowed to chuck them back. see how they like that...
more seriously, if people chuck bricks at police, I think the police should be allowed to chuck them back. see how they like that...
Posted by Royston on 2011-08-09 09:32:28
Perhaps that last line was a bit base but the rest was quite heartfelt after spending hours watching it all unfold on the news last night.
Posted by Fela on 2011-08-09 09:35:33
I'd say it's a bit naive to think "tensions that always flare up during times of economic decline" are not political. Let's face it, those people are lashing out for a reason, they're just hurting the wrong people using the wrong methods.
I wonder what our world would look like, if most of France had been ashamed to be French and otherwise stayed at home in 1789.
I wonder what our world would look like, if most of France had been ashamed to be French and otherwise stayed at home in 1789.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 10:21:10
rioting against a intractable monarchy is one thing; rioting cos you are bored and want a big screen TV is another. Just sayin.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 10:22:35
eg: in Tunisia, Egypt, and Syria, people are rioting/protesting/dying in search of freedom and the right to vote.
In Vancouver/London etc, people are rioting cos they are bored, want more stuff (and yes, I know our society encourages this, but still that's no excuse), and are chavs.
In Vancouver/London etc, people are rioting cos they are bored, want more stuff (and yes, I know our society encourages this, but still that's no excuse), and are chavs.
Posted by f_alk on 2011-08-09 10:42:06
Fela is right, pythrr is wrong.
Posted by Fela on 2011-08-09 10:59:26
I don't think the curent oligarchy of the rich with their blatant lobbyism is THAT far removed from feudalism. The weapons may have changed, but the war is essentially the same.
"There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war and we're winning." (Warren Buffett)
"There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war and we're winning." (Warren Buffett)
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 11:06:26
oh, great argument there f_alk.
Posted by Calcium on 2011-08-09 11:06:46
Im glad I live in Weymouth. The worst thing we have to worry about down here is the seagulls and running over the odd 'grockle' (local slang for holidaymaker)
I lived in London a long time ago for 2 years, I always found the people there to be the same as everywhere else. Normal. This is the usual minority of thugs that use any reason they can to justify the crimes they are commiting.
I lived in London a long time ago for 2 years, I always found the people there to be the same as everywhere else. Normal. This is the usual minority of thugs that use any reason they can to justify the crimes they are commiting.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 11:16:58
Weymouth is lovely.
I was planning a trip into London on Friday, but am now reconsidering. That'll save me 30 odd quid on the train alone.
I was planning a trip into London on Friday, but am now reconsidering. That'll save me 30 odd quid on the train alone.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-08-09 12:02:35
Is this the big society?
Posted by the_Sage on 2011-08-09 12:03:33
Meh, I'd have to say I'm with Pythrr on this one. The system isn't perfect but it's hardly comparable to pre-revolution France. Most importantly, these folks aren't there because they want a change in politics.
Posted by Fela on 2011-08-09 12:25:26
No, but most of them are probably there because they are angry and frustrated as a result of being without any real perspective. I'm pretty sure most of them want that to change and though they often would not make the connection, what they ultimately want is indeed a change in politics.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 12:26:09
to f_alk:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/08/egyptian-bloggers-parse-london-riots-in-real-time/
"As the riots in London continued for a third night on Monday, Egyptian bloggers, watching events unfold on live television, debated the meaning of the violent confrontations between young people and the police, which reminded some of them of their own pitched battles on the streets of Cairo a few months ago."
"Just before Mr. Rivers suggested to viewers of CNN that the rioters in London seemed to be more interested in looting than protesting, Zeinobia [an Egyptian protester and activist] made a similar observation from a much greater distance, writing: “I am sorry but you do not loot to object the murder of a young man, you are using his murder.”"
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/08/egyptian-bloggers-parse-london-riots-in-real-time/
"As the riots in London continued for a third night on Monday, Egyptian bloggers, watching events unfold on live television, debated the meaning of the violent confrontations between young people and the police, which reminded some of them of their own pitched battles on the streets of Cairo a few months ago."
"Just before Mr. Rivers suggested to viewers of CNN that the rioters in London seemed to be more interested in looting than protesting, Zeinobia [an Egyptian protester and activist] made a similar observation from a much greater distance, writing: “I am sorry but you do not loot to object the murder of a young man, you are using his murder.”"
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 12:27:03
jimmi, I fear that it is...
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-09 15:14:55
"rioting against a intractable monarchy is one thing; rioting cos you are bored and want a big screen TV is another. Just sayin."
Yeah pythrr, the 2nd one is way worse! :(
Yeah pythrr, the 2nd one is way worse! :(
Posted by soranos on 2011-08-09 15:28:28
"Before the revolution, he had to steal flour from the mill to feed his starving mother. As a child he once had to walk forty kilometers without even a taste of bread. I do believe this: Lenin and Stalin saved him.
[...]
What could 'fairness' possibly consist of in this encounter between classes? What does fairness imply? [...] Our shock worker, our clay-eater wanted to have it both ways. He wanted to impose his will on the masses. But he also wanted them to agree that he was right. [...] Would our Countess have been able to love him? Moreover would that have saved her? [...] Who is to blame? There can be but one definition of this confrontation: tragedy"
Vollmann, W.: Rising up and rising down
This is to show that the justification is most often dependent on the point of view one takes.
I sincerely hope nobody gets caught up in the violence, the aggression is certainly getting out of hand and setting houses on fire is certainly wrong.
That being said to claim that there are not deeper reasons behind this is missing the point. To say that they “Only want stuff” shows a lack of perspective. The socio-economic has greatly been widening during the last 2 decades. In some areas it almost feels like segregation, international studies of the school system show the inequality in terms of opportunity. Corporate interests have long found their way into the highest levels of politics. Lobbyism is so blatant that it can no longer be discredited as left-wing propaganda. Social services, taxes and everything that allows greater redistribution from above to below has to be cut down in order to pay the interest to the same banks and private lenders that just a few years back had to be “bailed out” with billions of tax money.
I am no more than moderately left, I have studied economics and believe in the free market with intelligent but not overbearing regulation, but I am not foolish enough to believe that a vast imbalance in the distribution of wealth and opportunities as we have it right now can sustain much longer. In comparable situations like this there has ALWAYS been a redistribution that followed and it won’t be any different this time around. The question only is when and through which means.
[...]
What could 'fairness' possibly consist of in this encounter between classes? What does fairness imply? [...] Our shock worker, our clay-eater wanted to have it both ways. He wanted to impose his will on the masses. But he also wanted them to agree that he was right. [...] Would our Countess have been able to love him? Moreover would that have saved her? [...] Who is to blame? There can be but one definition of this confrontation: tragedy"
Vollmann, W.: Rising up and rising down
This is to show that the justification is most often dependent on the point of view one takes.
I sincerely hope nobody gets caught up in the violence, the aggression is certainly getting out of hand and setting houses on fire is certainly wrong.
That being said to claim that there are not deeper reasons behind this is missing the point. To say that they “Only want stuff” shows a lack of perspective. The socio-economic has greatly been widening during the last 2 decades. In some areas it almost feels like segregation, international studies of the school system show the inequality in terms of opportunity. Corporate interests have long found their way into the highest levels of politics. Lobbyism is so blatant that it can no longer be discredited as left-wing propaganda. Social services, taxes and everything that allows greater redistribution from above to below has to be cut down in order to pay the interest to the same banks and private lenders that just a few years back had to be “bailed out” with billions of tax money.
I am no more than moderately left, I have studied economics and believe in the free market with intelligent but not overbearing regulation, but I am not foolish enough to believe that a vast imbalance in the distribution of wealth and opportunities as we have it right now can sustain much longer. In comparable situations like this there has ALWAYS been a redistribution that followed and it won’t be any different this time around. The question only is when and through which means.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 15:34:24
The welfare state in western nations such as the UK is in no way comparable to early 20th c. Russia. People are far from starving, and are provided (comparatively with other places and times) very well by the state. So people do not have jobs in the UK: so what? Compared to kids in Somalia, they are living like the rich (ie: food, housing - aside from the homeless, and most of them are due to mental health issues, not lack of govt funding - etc etc).
Yes there is a disparity between the poor and rich, but by historical standards it is no where near what it has been in the past. Will it become revolution-worthy in the future? Maybe, and probably so unless the trajectory changes. Is it there now in the UK? No, I refute that.
Yes there is a disparity between the poor and rich, but by historical standards it is no where near what it has been in the past. Will it become revolution-worthy in the future? Maybe, and probably so unless the trajectory changes. Is it there now in the UK? No, I refute that.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-09 16:09:27
pythrr, does the fact that people have it worse in one place make people feel like they have a lesser problem where they live? My guess would be no. People will act and react to what they know and what they know is how their every day life is.
I'm not saying it's smart, it's just that people are usually quite self absorbed. The closer a problem is to you in space and time, the more important it will be in your life.
That's why being bored here and now is a bigger problem than starving kids and soviet russia.
Problems are relative to what your expectations are and what you are accustomed to.
Oh and humans suck.
I'm not saying it's smart, it's just that people are usually quite self absorbed. The closer a problem is to you in space and time, the more important it will be in your life.
That's why being bored here and now is a bigger problem than starving kids and soviet russia.
Problems are relative to what your expectations are and what you are accustomed to.
Oh and humans suck.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 16:13:40
Fouly, it should, yes. Does it, no? My point was that the % of people already at a revolutionary pitch in places like London is far lower than it might be if people were genuinely deprived, rather than just deprived of the latest PS3 and iPhone.
Anyway, enough chat from you! Get yr game played so I can murder you in the whiskey league. :)
Anyway, enough chat from you! Get yr game played so I can murder you in the whiskey league. :)
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-09 16:18:32
Aye, things can always get worse. :D
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-09 16:21:54
Not sure why, but I find that a quite cheerful thought :)
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 16:28:44
hehe, yup. they sure can. nothing burning in my neck of the woods: yet.
Posted by soranos on 2011-08-09 16:35:16
The level of malnutrition and the rate of deaths in the infant stage in lower social classes are actually on the rise in most Western countries, while at the same time the quality of health, education and social services is falling and falling. And even after all this, it isn’t even about the material side of things but the psychological. It is about a lack of opportunity, about the paralyzing feeling of being totally incapable of changing one’s situation. This is why that “it is better than Somalia, so get in line and shut up” point moot. Poverty is not an absolute measure, but a relative one. It includes not only your material wealth, but also your opportunity, your social prestige and your political rights (and ability to take influence on politics). If life was a 200 yards dash a lot of these guys have started 50 yards behind the starting blocks.
You are wrong on another account if you take the Gini-coeffient as a measure of wealth distribution than the inequality we have today is historic. I guess your assumption is that since the lower floor is higher that inequality has to be lower, but that is not the case. The inequality has risen significantly during the last decade since more and more wealth is interest/debt-based, so in order to increase this wealth you need more and more debt at other places inside the system leading to more inequality.
If you analyze national budgets you will quickly find that actual welfare expenditures with a clear redistribution function from above to below are actually so low that they in themselves are hardly the reason that most governments can not “afford them anymore” (I exclude expenditures for the health system from this since they are ambivalent in their redistribution character and the education expenditures are actually a redistribution from below to above as most a done to schools and universities frequented by middle/higher class), but that any redistribution measures from above to below are blocked by powerful lobbying groups and interest payments are rising.
The quote was not made as to directly link the Russian revolution with what is going on in GB right now but rather as an illustration of the author’s perception of class struggles as a tragic dilemma. If you think that no greater redistribution will happen just because the rigid conditions of material poverty are not met than you are mistaken. The key role here will belong to the middle class. If it keeps getting cut like it is right now than it might happen sooner than you think. Another financial crash like in 2008 that saw many middle class families lose their savings could go a long way.
So what can these young people really do to be given a voice other than hit the streets?
You are wrong on another account if you take the Gini-coeffient as a measure of wealth distribution than the inequality we have today is historic. I guess your assumption is that since the lower floor is higher that inequality has to be lower, but that is not the case. The inequality has risen significantly during the last decade since more and more wealth is interest/debt-based, so in order to increase this wealth you need more and more debt at other places inside the system leading to more inequality.
If you analyze national budgets you will quickly find that actual welfare expenditures with a clear redistribution function from above to below are actually so low that they in themselves are hardly the reason that most governments can not “afford them anymore” (I exclude expenditures for the health system from this since they are ambivalent in their redistribution character and the education expenditures are actually a redistribution from below to above as most a done to schools and universities frequented by middle/higher class), but that any redistribution measures from above to below are blocked by powerful lobbying groups and interest payments are rising.
The quote was not made as to directly link the Russian revolution with what is going on in GB right now but rather as an illustration of the author’s perception of class struggles as a tragic dilemma. If you think that no greater redistribution will happen just because the rigid conditions of material poverty are not met than you are mistaken. The key role here will belong to the middle class. If it keeps getting cut like it is right now than it might happen sooner than you think. Another financial crash like in 2008 that saw many middle class families lose their savings could go a long way.
So what can these young people really do to be given a voice other than hit the streets?
Posted by JackassRampant on 2011-08-09 16:36:05
I think there's a broad sense that it's very hard to see a way forward in the mess we're in. I'm way out here in America, but this instability is global. The widening economic inequality DOES make it feel kind of like a new global aristocracy is being created. It's rather alarming.
It's easy to overstate how bad things were in pre-Revolution France. The winners write the story, but the truth is that people want what they know. They want to get through their day. I've got a big-screen TV already, thanks... but I can't pay rent and I have no food in my fridge. I've got lots of prospects, but every time the Dow tanks, my clients all freak out, and everybody wants to hold onto your money. It's been like this for years, but it's never been like this before in my life.
Rioting doesn't solve anything, and looting your fellow victims isn't the answer, but the rage is easy to understand and sympathize with. Fortunately, we still have the underlying mechanics of democratic political systems, so there is a weapon to hand. Just gotta find someone who won't break, to use as the tip of the spear. That's not as easy as it sounds.
The superstitious Aztec in me says we're entering the Realm of the Night, the time of the Jaguar. Did we not see the Smoking Mirror in the sea to the east of the Yucatan last year? Is this not from where Quetzalcoatl came in 1521? Now Tezcatlipoca is come to reclaim his home.
It's easy to overstate how bad things were in pre-Revolution France. The winners write the story, but the truth is that people want what they know. They want to get through their day. I've got a big-screen TV already, thanks... but I can't pay rent and I have no food in my fridge. I've got lots of prospects, but every time the Dow tanks, my clients all freak out, and everybody wants to hold onto your money. It's been like this for years, but it's never been like this before in my life.
Rioting doesn't solve anything, and looting your fellow victims isn't the answer, but the rage is easy to understand and sympathize with. Fortunately, we still have the underlying mechanics of democratic political systems, so there is a weapon to hand. Just gotta find someone who won't break, to use as the tip of the spear. That's not as easy as it sounds.
The superstitious Aztec in me says we're entering the Realm of the Night, the time of the Jaguar. Did we not see the Smoking Mirror in the sea to the east of the Yucatan last year? Is this not from where Quetzalcoatl came in 1521? Now Tezcatlipoca is come to reclaim his home.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2011-08-09 16:37:00
Soranos is a very smart person.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 16:46:31
"So what can these young people really do to be given a voice other than hit the streets?"
[1] get a job
[2] vote
[3] not loot Boots stores.
[1] get a job
[2] vote
[3] not loot Boots stores.
Posted by soranos on 2011-08-09 17:00:54
well, pythrr
seems like there is not too much behind all these sneaky little one-liners after all. Can not say that I am terribly suprised here that you fold and take the easy way out. Just next time make sure you know what the f you are talking about.
seems like there is not too much behind all these sneaky little one-liners after all. Can not say that I am terribly suprised here that you fold and take the easy way out. Just next time make sure you know what the f you are talking about.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 17:07:36
"Just next time make sure you know what the f you are talking about."
so, resorting to ad hominem abuse, eh?
well said sir.
I find you neo-liberal garden-sociology rather unconvincing.
so, resorting to ad hominem abuse, eh?
well said sir.
I find you neo-liberal garden-sociology rather unconvincing.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 17:07:49
your*
Posted by soranos on 2011-08-09 17:13:54
what pythrr? so you can dish them out but can't take 'em? No, say it ain't so...
:D
:D
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 17:27:47
um? when did i abuse you sir? You've really lost me there.
Posted by f_alk on 2011-08-09 18:10:08
soranos is right with both his analysis of the situation and with the level of pythrrs arguments (which explains why I don't bother to argue with him, its' not worth wasting my time - heck, even this additional line was barely worth it).
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 18:16:52
so, civil respect and actually fulfilling the social contract are wrong, are they?
well, in that case I respectfully disagree with your outdated marxist politics sir.
well, in that case I respectfully disagree with your outdated marxist politics sir.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2011-08-09 19:05:54
Come on, pythrr... you're a smart guy. You don't have to retreat to verbal chicanery just because those around you don't share your opinion.
Truth is, when it comes to the important things, we have been robbed. Sure, we've got great electronics, but there's no stability. You can't eat your PS3 or your iPhone; in fact, if you can't keep your lights on, they're basically just expensive bricks. And eventually, they become your last month's rent, at pennies on the dollar, before you go find yourself some alley to pitch a tent in. Watching it happen all around, wondering if I'm going to be next.
So yeah, don't get on us for our material culture; it's the fundamentals that count. And the fundamentals suck just as bad now as they did in 1930, and your big-screen TV and other gadgets are no more of a cure-all for our current malaise than were radios and flush toilets.
Truth is, when it comes to the important things, we have been robbed. Sure, we've got great electronics, but there's no stability. You can't eat your PS3 or your iPhone; in fact, if you can't keep your lights on, they're basically just expensive bricks. And eventually, they become your last month's rent, at pennies on the dollar, before you go find yourself some alley to pitch a tent in. Watching it happen all around, wondering if I'm going to be next.
So yeah, don't get on us for our material culture; it's the fundamentals that count. And the fundamentals suck just as bad now as they did in 1930, and your big-screen TV and other gadgets are no more of a cure-all for our current malaise than were radios and flush toilets.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 19:13:11
"your big-screen TV and other gadgets are no more of a cure-all for our current malaise than were radios and flush toilets"
yet the masses clamour for them in any case.
of course the entire thing is due to poor education, poor options, and the stupidity of people.
if you start encouraging stupid people to think they should have the trappings of a rich life, then they will riot when it turns out they are too stupid to get a job that will give this to them.
i say bring back workhouses.
yet the masses clamour for them in any case.
of course the entire thing is due to poor education, poor options, and the stupidity of people.
if you start encouraging stupid people to think they should have the trappings of a rich life, then they will riot when it turns out they are too stupid to get a job that will give this to them.
i say bring back workhouses.
Posted by soranos on 2011-08-09 19:19:27
did not mean to be harsh or personal. just stir up a bit, like you also like to do from time to time. Nothing personal!
Marx economic model proved rubbish in the end, but that was only one part of his work. His analysis on the short-comings of Capitalism and the origin of economic crises is excellent in most parts accepted in great circles of economists. That being said I am far from a Marxist.
Still, poverty DOES exist in the West as well and the fact that many of us are not aware of it just underlines the segmentation of society that leads to this kind of detachement. (I will assume here that almost all of us here are middle/higher class)
All that being said, violence is wrong and they should take the streets in a more peacefull manner like the youth in Spain for example.
@JackassRampant: you still have faith in your political system? If there is one thing I do not envy the US for it is your political system. That a rather small group like the Tea Party is able to hold an elected government hostage would make me lose all hope. :D
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-08-09 21:27:02
The welfare state in western nations such as the UK is in no way comparable to early 20th c. Russia.
and in early 20th century russia they werent comparable to early 19th century china
People are far from starving, and are provided (comparatively with other places and times) very well by the state. So people do not have jobs in the UK: so what? Compared to kids in Somalia, they are living like the rich (ie: food, housing - aside from the homeless, and most of them are due to mental health issues, not lack of govt funding - etc etc).
And people in france in the late 18th century were a lot better of than in... whatever colony really...
"Yes there is a disparity between the poor and rich, but by historical standards it is no where near what it has been in the past."
It has, aside from the times where we didnt face a lot of revolutions, the dark ages, always been the case. The "USA to be" were better of under the crown than their parents were in europe one generation before.
-------
i am in no way advocating whats happening in london. i am in no way saying this is or should be the start of a revolution. but your arguments, are now as valid as if you would say them at the beginning of any of the great revolutions we faced in europe.
and in early 20th century russia they werent comparable to early 19th century china
People are far from starving, and are provided (comparatively with other places and times) very well by the state. So people do not have jobs in the UK: so what? Compared to kids in Somalia, they are living like the rich (ie: food, housing - aside from the homeless, and most of them are due to mental health issues, not lack of govt funding - etc etc).
And people in france in the late 18th century were a lot better of than in... whatever colony really...
"Yes there is a disparity between the poor and rich, but by historical standards it is no where near what it has been in the past."
It has, aside from the times where we didnt face a lot of revolutions, the dark ages, always been the case. The "USA to be" were better of under the crown than their parents were in europe one generation before.
-------
i am in no way advocating whats happening in london. i am in no way saying this is or should be the start of a revolution. but your arguments, are now as valid as if you would say them at the beginning of any of the great revolutions we faced in europe.
Posted by Fela on 2011-08-09 21:30:02
@Pythrr: so, who encourages the stupid people?
Did you know, that only a few decades back you had to cater to the wealthy to become rich yourself? Now due to social welfare, it's actually more profitable to mass market to the less wealthy in order to get extremely rich.
So..who does all that social welfare money ultimately end up at?
Did you know, that only a few decades back you had to cater to the wealthy to become rich yourself? Now due to social welfare, it's actually more profitable to mass market to the less wealthy in order to get extremely rich.
So..who does all that social welfare money ultimately end up at?
Posted by Chewie on 2011-08-09 21:30:47
I'm sorry, but as a (reasonably) well educated Brit, i'm totlaly with Pyth here.
This isn't about an underclass railing against poverty or the class system.
This isn't about a need to push through political change (with the possible exception of the Beeb's coverage).
This is about badly raised, idiotic young people deciding that instead of saving up for luxury items, they'd rather steal them.
It's about young people having no respect.
And the blame for that must lie squarly on the shoulders of the parents who have been molly coddled by the state for too long.
This isn't about an underclass railing against poverty or the class system.
This isn't about a need to push through political change (with the possible exception of the Beeb's coverage).
This is about badly raised, idiotic young people deciding that instead of saving up for luxury items, they'd rather steal them.
It's about young people having no respect.
And the blame for that must lie squarly on the shoulders of the parents who have been molly coddled by the state for too long.
Posted by PainState on 2011-08-09 21:39:57
"That a rather small group like the Tea Party is able to hold an elected government hostage would make me lose all hope. :D" -Soranos
What da heck? You do know that the tea party elected official represenatives to the United States Congress? That those officials speak for a rising group of citizens who can only be heard in our represenative democracy by said represenatives that were duly elected?
Now you can agree or disagree with the principals of the tea party. But to say they are holding elected govt hostage is beyond the pale, they are also elected members of that goverment.
What da heck? You do know that the tea party elected official represenatives to the United States Congress? That those officials speak for a rising group of citizens who can only be heard in our represenative democracy by said represenatives that were duly elected?
Now you can agree or disagree with the principals of the tea party. But to say they are holding elected govt hostage is beyond the pale, they are also elected members of that goverment.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-09 21:42:37
I thought this was the prelude to the downfall of the western world... must have gotten that one wrong then :(
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-09 21:47:55
People seem to have this misguided idea that democracy actually works for the people now a days. Riding the capitalist pony straight to the end of the world! Yeeehaw!
Posted by PainState on 2011-08-09 21:48:07
Sorry Foulscumm that happens on Nov 2, 2012 when Rick Perry wins the Presidency and both houses of the Unites States Congress are flush with Tea Party members.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-09 21:49:49
:D
Posted by PainState on 2011-08-09 21:50:23
So the new progressive model is the way to go huh Foulscumm?
I will throw my lot in with represenative democracy will full throttle capitalism any day of the week. Atleas that has a track recoed of success, starting the day the United States declared its independance.
I will throw my lot in with represenative democracy will full throttle capitalism any day of the week. Atleas that has a track recoed of success, starting the day the United States declared its independance.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-09 21:53:49
Yeah, but quite simple math tells us quite clearly where that track is heading. You can't have unlimited growth in a finite environment.
So ok... slightly off topic by now... but seriously, who cares about the Brits anyway? :D
So ok... slightly off topic by now... but seriously, who cares about the Brits anyway? :D
Posted by JackassRampant on 2011-08-09 22:05:17
1) @ Gromrilram: in proportion, the gap between rich(est) and everybody else (poor or otherwise) is greater than at any point in history, though less categorical than in some premodern and early-modern societies. That is, Louis XVI had nothing on Warren Buffett wealth-wise, but that doesn't mean that Warren Buffett could have anyone beheaded.
2) Most folks can get through their day without going hungry. But there's no confidence that they will get through next month. That doesn't excuse looters, but it does explain the discontent. The reason it's turning into riots rather than meaningful political action is that there's no sense that political action will make things better.
3) Chewie, you're right and wrong about young people having no respect. What's happened is that we're going on a century of post-modernity (I figure the transitionary period was the depression between the wars and the end of mercantilism), and we're sort of victims of our own success. We forgot that post-industrial civilization is not natural or automatic, and takes ever-greater investment to maintain. Now, as the before-time falls out of memory, we seem to forget the need to maintain the engines that keep it all running.
4) @ Soranos, it's the (disruptive and destructive) volatility of the system that makes it easy for vocal people to have a big impact. I'm not really keen on it, honestly: I like the ideal of representative government, but the geographic nature of the US representation system creates a lot of perversity, particularly rewarding sparsely-populated areas, encouraging crazy things like a 3-bedroom house in BF Wyoming that's the headquarters for 17,000 different corporations. But if you have a lot of angry people and good cheerleaders and organizers, you can change the political climate.
Is it as bad there as it is here? I mean, when I was a kid, there were a few homeless people, but now there are families living in tents in the park and if you go out on the streets late at night, you see men and women, young and old, hidden in the shrubs and under the eaves. All the while, nice houses in nice neighborhoods stay vacant on the market for years.
2) Most folks can get through their day without going hungry. But there's no confidence that they will get through next month. That doesn't excuse looters, but it does explain the discontent. The reason it's turning into riots rather than meaningful political action is that there's no sense that political action will make things better.
3) Chewie, you're right and wrong about young people having no respect. What's happened is that we're going on a century of post-modernity (I figure the transitionary period was the depression between the wars and the end of mercantilism), and we're sort of victims of our own success. We forgot that post-industrial civilization is not natural or automatic, and takes ever-greater investment to maintain. Now, as the before-time falls out of memory, we seem to forget the need to maintain the engines that keep it all running.
4) @ Soranos, it's the (disruptive and destructive) volatility of the system that makes it easy for vocal people to have a big impact. I'm not really keen on it, honestly: I like the ideal of representative government, but the geographic nature of the US representation system creates a lot of perversity, particularly rewarding sparsely-populated areas, encouraging crazy things like a 3-bedroom house in BF Wyoming that's the headquarters for 17,000 different corporations. But if you have a lot of angry people and good cheerleaders and organizers, you can change the political climate.
Is it as bad there as it is here? I mean, when I was a kid, there were a few homeless people, but now there are families living in tents in the park and if you go out on the streets late at night, you see men and women, young and old, hidden in the shrubs and under the eaves. All the while, nice houses in nice neighborhoods stay vacant on the market for years.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2011-08-09 22:11:04
It's not the "Tea Party" holding the US hostage. It's the Republican Party. John Boehner could have agreed to simply raise the debt ceiling, and every Democrat and enough Republicans would have voted for it. He chose to hold out for theater, and the "Tea Party" gets no more credit for that in my mind than does the non-"Tea Party" leadership, nor the astonishing bit of astroturfing that created the "Tea Party" in the first place.
But sorry, PainState, threatening to force a default is indeed tantamount to holding the country hostage.
But sorry, PainState, threatening to force a default is indeed tantamount to holding the country hostage.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 22:29:26
to grom
"i am in no way advocating whats happening in london. i am in no way saying this is or should be the start of a revolution. but your arguments, are now as valid as if you would say them at the beginning of any of the great revolutions we faced in europe."
I was saying the same thing as you. if you read the text, i was responding to soranos mentioning Russia and France.
"i am in no way advocating whats happening in london. i am in no way saying this is or should be the start of a revolution. but your arguments, are now as valid as if you would say them at the beginning of any of the great revolutions we faced in europe."
I was saying the same thing as you. if you read the text, i was responding to soranos mentioning Russia and France.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 22:30:43
thank you Chewie
Non-Brits should stfu, as they are not on the ground here and do not know the culture.
Best wishes
Pythrr
Non-Brits should stfu, as they are not on the ground here and do not know the culture.
Best wishes
Pythrr
Posted by Royston on 2011-08-09 22:31:38
As one of the "have nots" until recently, I am appalled at what I deem as mindless vandalism and thievery.
Like a lot of these youths I was brought up on a council estate, with an absent father, on welfare, single mother etc, but I did not see it as my inalienable right to free stuff. Perhaps I was a generation too early to have everything I wanted on a plate, perhaps when my mother (she had to work a lot to support us / her smoking and drinking habits) was actually around I was taught the value of hard work.
Now after years of graft I am in a position that I do not readily identify with these rioting ingrates, but I still remember what it was like to have nothing.
Like a lot of these youths I was brought up on a council estate, with an absent father, on welfare, single mother etc, but I did not see it as my inalienable right to free stuff. Perhaps I was a generation too early to have everything I wanted on a plate, perhaps when my mother (she had to work a lot to support us / her smoking and drinking habits) was actually around I was taught the value of hard work.
Now after years of graft I am in a position that I do not readily identify with these rioting ingrates, but I still remember what it was like to have nothing.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-09 22:33:02
\o/
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-09 23:03:41
good on you Royston.
let's remember that lots of people on estates _are not_ rioting. it's a selfish few.
let's remember that lots of people on estates _are not_ rioting. it's a selfish few.
Posted by X_Sniper on 2011-08-10 02:53:31
I bet you, a whole buch of people in those riots are just drunk, or looking for a reason to do something illegal and a crowd to back them up on it
Posted by ZachariasTheEverliving on 2011-08-10 05:38:11
The reality of the world is that it is bankrupt. Every country's national debt outweigh everything the country has. Money is no longer based on or backed by gold like it was back in the early 20th century. Now it is based on us, the men and women of the country and how much faith we put in it. The simple fact is that we are losing our faith in capitalism and the world econemy is suffering. It is only a matter of time until it collapses in on itself and then we are all in trouble.
i have been laughed at or ignored because of the ideas I share with like minded people, people looking for a way to rescue themselves from this awful situation the banks and upper echelons of society have put us in. There are numerous websites out there, TPUC, British Constitution Group, North-East Rebels, The Freeman League www.getoutofdebtfree.org
There is a time for deciding, is this a place where you want your children to grow up, surrounded by the insane interest rates and unjust court system with few real oppertunities to achieve their own life goals? This is how Britain is now.
Do you want them to live in a state where their every move is monitered, every detail collected, every minor transgression punished? This is britain in the future if these riots continue and major changes to the current system do not happen.
As much as I dont want anybody to get hurt or any small private family run businesses to suffer I can condone the actions of the rioters.
They may not understand the implications of what they are doing or even the real reason, but at least they have the cohones to take a stand and say no. Its not fair and we are sick of it.
Remember the future of Britain and the world when you decide what happens next because the choice is yours. Punish the men and women or punish the system that created the persons responsible.
i have been laughed at or ignored because of the ideas I share with like minded people, people looking for a way to rescue themselves from this awful situation the banks and upper echelons of society have put us in. There are numerous websites out there, TPUC, British Constitution Group, North-East Rebels, The Freeman League www.getoutofdebtfree.org
There is a time for deciding, is this a place where you want your children to grow up, surrounded by the insane interest rates and unjust court system with few real oppertunities to achieve their own life goals? This is how Britain is now.
Do you want them to live in a state where their every move is monitered, every detail collected, every minor transgression punished? This is britain in the future if these riots continue and major changes to the current system do not happen.
As much as I dont want anybody to get hurt or any small private family run businesses to suffer I can condone the actions of the rioters.
They may not understand the implications of what they are doing or even the real reason, but at least they have the cohones to take a stand and say no. Its not fair and we are sick of it.
Remember the future of Britain and the world when you decide what happens next because the choice is yours. Punish the men and women or punish the system that created the persons responsible.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-10 09:21:29
"Its not fair and we are sick of it."
It has always been thus.
No one promised you a fair world.
If you fight it, you will end up in jail.
Good luck with that.
It has always been thus.
No one promised you a fair world.
If you fight it, you will end up in jail.
Good luck with that.
Posted by CK_Zweistein on 2011-08-10 10:53:39
i think pythrr has got the main point ... but he does not sees the reality as these kids do:
"1.) get a job"
If you're entire family, eyery one you know and everyone in the settlement you live in have no (or no "real" or "decent") job, how big is the chance to actualy live an other live then these people? Will you come to think that [u]you[/u] will find a job and live a better live? ... i think the answer is a big "NO!".
so if you have no hope, get the thinks you can get now! and dont think of tomorrow...
there was another important point in pythrrs texts ...
"fullfill the social contract". (we in germany call it the "generation-contract", but its kind of the same.)
Its simple has been broken!
The actual generation with power is [u]not[/u] prepairing a good future. they spend all the money they can think of. and atm they use the money of the next generation[b]s[/b] called "credit". to make it even worse they not only use it for there generation in general, but they use it for just a small group.
"1.) get a job"
If you're entire family, eyery one you know and everyone in the settlement you live in have no (or no "real" or "decent") job, how big is the chance to actualy live an other live then these people? Will you come to think that [u]you[/u] will find a job and live a better live? ... i think the answer is a big "NO!".
so if you have no hope, get the thinks you can get now! and dont think of tomorrow...
there was another important point in pythrrs texts ...
"fullfill the social contract". (we in germany call it the "generation-contract", but its kind of the same.)
Its simple has been broken!
The actual generation with power is [u]not[/u] prepairing a good future. they spend all the money they can think of. and atm they use the money of the next generation[b]s[/b] called "credit". to make it even worse they not only use it for there generation in general, but they use it for just a small group.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-10 11:14:22
re: get a job.
as Royston posted below, he got out of an estate by working hard and pulling himself up. It is not impossible.
and yes, there is an underclass, and they are pissed off. what do we do? we, as a society, crush them, like we always have. it's just a pity that we can't just stick them on a ship to Australia like we used to. that' would teach 'em. get eaten by sharks they would. ;)
as Royston posted below, he got out of an estate by working hard and pulling himself up. It is not impossible.
and yes, there is an underclass, and they are pissed off. what do we do? we, as a society, crush them, like we always have. it's just a pity that we can't just stick them on a ship to Australia like we used to. that' would teach 'em. get eaten by sharks they would. ;)
Posted by Chewie on 2011-08-10 12:14:03
Hey, i don't have a decent or well paid job - It's minimum wage - I'm on the breadline. I'm poor. Most of the people whose kids have taken part in these riots are better off than me, thanks to the benefits system designed to buy votes for a political party "for the working classes".
I have a child, yet his mother and i split up when he was young.
I can speak both for my son's mother and myself when i say there is no chance in hell of him being raised without a good work ethic, respect and the desire to better himself.
This is because i want the best for my child. There's not enough parents in this country that think like that. For too long, they've been given enough money by the state that trying to live as i do, poor yet decent and working, is not appealing for them. This must stop.
I have a child, yet his mother and i split up when he was young.
I can speak both for my son's mother and myself when i say there is no chance in hell of him being raised without a good work ethic, respect and the desire to better himself.
This is because i want the best for my child. There's not enough parents in this country that think like that. For too long, they've been given enough money by the state that trying to live as i do, poor yet decent and working, is not appealing for them. This must stop.
Posted by Fela on 2011-08-10 14:27:41
I'm sorry mate, but it is simply ridiculous how brainwashed some people (apparently including you) are.
The problem is NOT that social welfare is apparently about the level of your pay, the problem is, that your pay is as LOW as social welfare. You can be sure that SOMEONE profits from that fact a lot more than those under social welfare.
Those people should be your natural allies, yet you allow yourself being emotionally distanced from them because the rich caste's brainwashing and lobbyism program is functioning perfectly. Congratulations.
The problem is NOT that social welfare is apparently about the level of your pay, the problem is, that your pay is as LOW as social welfare. You can be sure that SOMEONE profits from that fact a lot more than those under social welfare.
Those people should be your natural allies, yet you allow yourself being emotionally distanced from them because the rich caste's brainwashing and lobbyism program is functioning perfectly. Congratulations.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-10 14:34:40
Fela, good to see that you think that _your_ textbook knowledge trumps that of someone actually out there in the world living the reality of the situation. Arrogant much?
Posted by f_alk on 2011-08-10 15:27:51
The Canadian Brit who can talk about the situation in the USA but does not allow any non-Brit to discuss the situation in the UK is calling someone arrogant?
Really?
Really?
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-10 15:29:58
What situation in the USA are you referring too?
Well?
Well?
Posted by f_alk on 2011-08-10 15:34:32
The other Blog (US newscoverage on the Oslo tragedy), where you let loose a comment about "shooting mexicans".
Well, you surely are not Norwegian, yet you can comment on anything there.
Well, you surely are not Norwegian, yet you can comment on anything there.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-10 15:43:39
What has commenting on NPR and PBS vs FOX (all three channels are freely available in Canada, where I live part of each year), got to do with this? I am very familiar with all three channels and the issues of media balance that they embody. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about sir. My comment on that blog was nothing at all to do with Norway (a lovely country), but rather to do with US media balance.
Posted by f_alk on 2011-08-10 15:56:08
"you have no idea what you are talking about" ...
well, I rather guess you have no idea what I am talking about:
you called Fela arrogant, and I wondered how someone who calls all non Brits to "shut the f*ck up" on the basis they could not know the culture could do this. Especially as he now claims that he himself is able to inform himself about the culture of other countries?
Do you think you are the only one who is capable of this feat - then you are the arrogant one.
If you don't think that you are the only one who is capable of this feat, why did you "disallow" it in the first place (and forbidding comments of those)?
well, I rather guess you have no idea what I am talking about:
you called Fela arrogant, and I wondered how someone who calls all non Brits to "shut the f*ck up" on the basis they could not know the culture could do this. Especially as he now claims that he himself is able to inform himself about the culture of other countries?
Do you think you are the only one who is capable of this feat - then you are the arrogant one.
If you don't think that you are the only one who is capable of this feat, why did you "disallow" it in the first place (and forbidding comments of those)?
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-10 16:15:25
informed comment is welcome.
uniformed arrogant sociological readings from afar are not.
have a happy day sir in your soon-to-fall-apart euro paradise.
uniformed arrogant sociological readings from afar are not.
have a happy day sir in your soon-to-fall-apart euro paradise.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-10 17:13:42
pythrr, I know Britain doesn't agree with me, but you're a part of the same world as the rest of us.
Clearly the people that have little to nothing is to blame for the state of the world.
The world is a place of horrors because people don't take responsibility for their own actions. Peoples choices is the most powerful tool for change humanity possess. We can choose to make a better world, we've simply been trained not to want that, or told that we can't. "Good luck trying to change the world mate"... why thank you, at least we might give it a shot before it's too late, no?
Or should we all just either sit back and watch porn while we wait for the end or maybe go out and get a new TV... the End of the World in 51" HD anyone?
The logic of destroying other poor working class peoples homes and businesses is dumb beyond belief. But then most problems in the world stem from poor education, which is also a question of money in most places.
Oh, and:
Vote Cthulhu - 2012
Clearly the people that have little to nothing is to blame for the state of the world.
The world is a place of horrors because people don't take responsibility for their own actions. Peoples choices is the most powerful tool for change humanity possess. We can choose to make a better world, we've simply been trained not to want that, or told that we can't. "Good luck trying to change the world mate"... why thank you, at least we might give it a shot before it's too late, no?
Or should we all just either sit back and watch porn while we wait for the end or maybe go out and get a new TV... the End of the World in 51" HD anyone?
The logic of destroying other poor working class peoples homes and businesses is dumb beyond belief. But then most problems in the world stem from poor education, which is also a question of money in most places.
Oh, and:
Vote Cthulhu - 2012
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-10 17:54:50
Fouly, I agree with you.
Was just getting sick of the euro-marxist-lefties reading the riots in terms of "oh poor woe-begotten youngsters who have had a hard time cos their mummies couldn't afford to buy them PS3s"...
Personal responsibility is exactly right: as Royston said earlier, one can choose not to be thieving scum. It's quite easy: just don't go stealing stuff, and get a job instead. You can't get a good job? Well, diddums, the world ain't fair, and maybe you should have worked harder in school instead of smoking and getting off with Fat Jenny behind the bikesheds.
Poor education lies at the heart of this, as you say. I'm an educationalist, and am lucky enough to work with clever kids, but have friends who work with urban youth etc. We need more programs like these.
Pyth
Was just getting sick of the euro-marxist-lefties reading the riots in terms of "oh poor woe-begotten youngsters who have had a hard time cos their mummies couldn't afford to buy them PS3s"...
Personal responsibility is exactly right: as Royston said earlier, one can choose not to be thieving scum. It's quite easy: just don't go stealing stuff, and get a job instead. You can't get a good job? Well, diddums, the world ain't fair, and maybe you should have worked harder in school instead of smoking and getting off with Fat Jenny behind the bikesheds.
Poor education lies at the heart of this, as you say. I'm an educationalist, and am lucky enough to work with clever kids, but have friends who work with urban youth etc. We need more programs like these.
Pyth
Posted by koadah on 2011-08-10 18:30:59
Good luck changing the world dude. ;)
The polititians are fiddling their expenses and taking back handers from anyone wants policy to go their way.
The police are taking backhanders from Murdoch et al to supply information and 'forget' to investigate certain 'issues'. Businesses, banks etc seem to pull whatever scam they think that they can get away with.
The richest seem to pay less tax than the poorest though they do create work for accountants.
Does anyone ask about the origin of the stuff they get off ebay?
People are downloading 'free' stuff like crazy.
Maybe the real problem is that people assume that crooks are actually the majority but the educated ones are a just a tad more subtle. ;)
Full respect to Chewie. But hands up all those that believe that Mr Cameron really didn't know that his MPs were ripping off our taxes to renovate their moats. ;)
The polititians are fiddling their expenses and taking back handers from anyone wants policy to go their way.
The police are taking backhanders from Murdoch et al to supply information and 'forget' to investigate certain 'issues'. Businesses, banks etc seem to pull whatever scam they think that they can get away with.
The richest seem to pay less tax than the poorest though they do create work for accountants.
Does anyone ask about the origin of the stuff they get off ebay?
People are downloading 'free' stuff like crazy.
Maybe the real problem is that people assume that crooks are actually the majority but the educated ones are a just a tad more subtle. ;)
Full respect to Chewie. But hands up all those that believe that Mr Cameron really didn't know that his MPs were ripping off our taxes to renovate their moats. ;)
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-10 18:58:36
ok koadah, hope you are wrong - but if you are right, we should all just give up, buy a shotgun, and barricade our houses...
:)
:)
Posted by PainState on 2011-08-10 19:14:27
A lot of pomtificating going on....Are they still rioting and burning as they go in the streets right now?
Posted by koadah on 2011-08-10 19:17:11
>ok koadah, but if you are right, we should all ust give up, buy a shotgun, and barricade our houses...
If that would make you feel safer. ;)
The truth is dude even at the height of all this rioting you would still have been far safer in London than the vast majority of cities around the world. ;)
I'm just up the road from Tottenham and I saw the initial demonstration. If anything we're probably safer now than usual (unless you live above a shop) as all the gang bangers are either out looting, in police cells or at home playing with their new toys. ;)
I'm not sure of the Fumbbl demographic but maybe we have a higher % of 'nice guys' then the general population.
The way it normally works is that people will do what they think that they can get away with. That includes your rich and well educated.
On Saturday night we had 24 hour news coverage of people doing whatever they pleased and appearing to get away with it.
After 3 days of pussyfooting around we decided to get police on the streets in numbers. And started to post film of people getting nicked and appearing in court. Strangely enough things started to quieten down. Oh, except for those places that sent us their policemen. ;)
If that would make you feel safer. ;)
The truth is dude even at the height of all this rioting you would still have been far safer in London than the vast majority of cities around the world. ;)
I'm just up the road from Tottenham and I saw the initial demonstration. If anything we're probably safer now than usual (unless you live above a shop) as all the gang bangers are either out looting, in police cells or at home playing with their new toys. ;)
I'm not sure of the Fumbbl demographic but maybe we have a higher % of 'nice guys' then the general population.
The way it normally works is that people will do what they think that they can get away with. That includes your rich and well educated.
On Saturday night we had 24 hour news coverage of people doing whatever they pleased and appearing to get away with it.
After 3 days of pussyfooting around we decided to get police on the streets in numbers. And started to post film of people getting nicked and appearing in court. Strangely enough things started to quieten down. Oh, except for those places that sent us their policemen. ;)
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-10 21:03:44
yeah, we'll see what happens tonight?
anyone running a book on which minor town (I mean, Gloucester and Cambridge?, ffs?) will kick off tonight?
anyone running a book on which minor town (I mean, Gloucester and Cambridge?, ffs?) will kick off tonight?
Posted by DragonsMaw on 2011-08-10 21:39:24
Don't be ashamed to be British. Be ashamed to be human. Riots in London (ostensibly about a cop shooting someone? I admit to my apathy). Riots in Libya and a half dozen other places because they don't like their government. Riots in Vancouver because they lost a game. Riots in Detroit because they WON a game? I don't even know where to start...
This entire conversation has made me a little soul sick... I really wanted to jump in with something intelligent and insightful, but there isn't anything.
I think, 10 years ago, at most, I'd have joined the rioters. Not to loot, I like to think, but because I thought the system was wrong (all this assumes US instead of England). Maybe it could be a wake up call to someone important. But then, when do those in power ever listen to someone so easy to point at as bad?
Now, I'd like to think I've transcended some of that. In theory, the way to beat the system is from within the system. But then, when has the system ever actually cared?
I don't know the answer... None of us does, or we'd have answered it already. Is this really part of the human condition? Lord I hope not, or there really is no hope, is there?
This entire conversation has made me a little soul sick... I really wanted to jump in with something intelligent and insightful, but there isn't anything.
I think, 10 years ago, at most, I'd have joined the rioters. Not to loot, I like to think, but because I thought the system was wrong (all this assumes US instead of England). Maybe it could be a wake up call to someone important. But then, when do those in power ever listen to someone so easy to point at as bad?
Now, I'd like to think I've transcended some of that. In theory, the way to beat the system is from within the system. But then, when has the system ever actually cared?
I don't know the answer... None of us does, or we'd have answered it already. Is this really part of the human condition? Lord I hope not, or there really is no hope, is there?
Posted by Arktoris on 2011-08-10 22:06:49
Looks like some people finally realized that nonviolent protests get nothing done.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2011-08-10 23:38:48
The problem, Arktoris, is that violent protests against the wrong people ALSO get nothing done. When they start killing bankers and oilmen in the streets, we may get somewhere. Those are the real causes of our misfortune: over the last 20 years they've bought the whole damn world, and rebuilding society will only be possible after they've been brought to heel. But I'd think a mob of angry villagers storming the castle with semiautomatic "pitchforks" would be a rather unfortunate way forward, no?
Posted by PainState on 2011-08-11 00:17:08
WOW!!! I did not realize it was that easy.
I did not think it was a one step process.
Step 1: Kill all the bankers and oilmen around the world, that would bring them to heel.
And then we will rebuild society?
This one step soulution to all our problems seems very nihilistic with no real though of what happens after all the killings. Who exactly is going to transform society? you never got to phase #2 of the plan.
I did not think it was a one step process.
Step 1: Kill all the bankers and oilmen around the world, that would bring them to heel.
And then we will rebuild society?
This one step soulution to all our problems seems very nihilistic with no real though of what happens after all the killings. Who exactly is going to transform society? you never got to phase #2 of the plan.
Posted by Fela on 2011-08-11 00:18:49
That's what i meant with wrong methods at the wrong people. It's stupid, but anyone who can't at least _understand_ the motivation those people is either outragiously stupid or brainwashed. And i'm NOT talking about the thieves and looters jumping on the bandwaggon because they believe they can get away with things in the crowd.
@Pythrr: So just because i don't agree with right wing capitalist propaganda i'm marxist? Way to go, mate.
@Pythrr: So just because i don't agree with right wing capitalist propaganda i'm marxist? Way to go, mate.
Posted by PainState on 2011-08-11 00:20:57
My last comment was in jest but in all frankness it is not a joking manner.
Progressives allways talk a good game of transforming this or that, rebuild society for the better of all...But they allways seem to leave out the killing part. History has taught us that the killing part is allways part of the plan.
At least JackassRampant tells it like it is from his point of view and does not leave out a key step in the transformative society he wishes for.
Progressives allways talk a good game of transforming this or that, rebuild society for the better of all...But they allways seem to leave out the killing part. History has taught us that the killing part is allways part of the plan.
At least JackassRampant tells it like it is from his point of view and does not leave out a key step in the transformative society he wishes for.
Posted by soranos on 2011-08-11 00:42:09
Social expenditures with a clear redistribution effect from above to below are being cut and the transfers per person are falling for quiet a while. The fact that overall welfare payments are not falling is due to the increasing costs of the pensions and health system and that reason for this is the demographic structure of our societies and not the unemployed/lower classes.
The inequality of opportunities is increasing because the social programs are being cut everywhere. I am not talking about monetary transfers but education programs and the ranks of social workers. One of the most important pillars of a free market system is equal competition and that simply is not given anymore. Social upwards-mobility has significantly decreased in the last 15 years in the western societies. But this is necessary for the system to sustain itself over the long run that the most talented can rise the ranks.
Chewie, Royston, I have a lot or respect for the way you fight through,, but I can also tell you of people I know who live a life in real poverty and can not even afford public health care. Pythrr it is ignorant to claim to only mentally unstable persons could become homeless. I wish it was like that. Again, I personally know somebody who would be homeless if it wasn't for the financial efforts of his friends. As Fela has stated, opportunity costs for not working might be too low, but that is not because the welfare check is too high (again, it is falling in real terms), but wages are too low and stagnating for decades now. The general believe that global competition would not allow for higher wages more often than not would not withstand an in-depth economic analysis as differences in productivity are still vast.
I am not British, but back in 07 studied a year in Cardiff and naturally made a lot of trips to London and was quiet surprised by the segmentation of population groups in British major cities.
I also feel like I need to point out the big elephant in the room. Race and religion also plays a role here. If you are part of a minority you will have a disadvantage in most situations in life. Actually, already the perception of discrimination and a potential feeling of inferiority or detachment can paralyze a person. I worked for NGOs significant time in Lima, Peru and Phnom Penh, Cambodia and have seen how powerful this sensation can be.
And before everybody is now throwing examples at me, no, I am not saying everybody is a racist. Some will experience more racism in life than others, some will reach the higher positions they are capable of, others will not. But it is naive to suggest that is not at least playing a psychological role here.
It is not helping that GB has an atrocious government right now. Between his bad, late showing here, the Murdoch affair and his total inability to give the stagnating economy any impulses, Cameron should take responsibility and step down. I rank him barely above Berlusconi.
The inequality of opportunities is increasing because the social programs are being cut everywhere. I am not talking about monetary transfers but education programs and the ranks of social workers. One of the most important pillars of a free market system is equal competition and that simply is not given anymore. Social upwards-mobility has significantly decreased in the last 15 years in the western societies. But this is necessary for the system to sustain itself over the long run that the most talented can rise the ranks.
Chewie, Royston, I have a lot or respect for the way you fight through,, but I can also tell you of people I know who live a life in real poverty and can not even afford public health care. Pythrr it is ignorant to claim to only mentally unstable persons could become homeless. I wish it was like that. Again, I personally know somebody who would be homeless if it wasn't for the financial efforts of his friends. As Fela has stated, opportunity costs for not working might be too low, but that is not because the welfare check is too high (again, it is falling in real terms), but wages are too low and stagnating for decades now. The general believe that global competition would not allow for higher wages more often than not would not withstand an in-depth economic analysis as differences in productivity are still vast.
I am not British, but back in 07 studied a year in Cardiff and naturally made a lot of trips to London and was quiet surprised by the segmentation of population groups in British major cities.
I also feel like I need to point out the big elephant in the room. Race and religion also plays a role here. If you are part of a minority you will have a disadvantage in most situations in life. Actually, already the perception of discrimination and a potential feeling of inferiority or detachment can paralyze a person. I worked for NGOs significant time in Lima, Peru and Phnom Penh, Cambodia and have seen how powerful this sensation can be.
And before everybody is now throwing examples at me, no, I am not saying everybody is a racist. Some will experience more racism in life than others, some will reach the higher positions they are capable of, others will not. But it is naive to suggest that is not at least playing a psychological role here.
It is not helping that GB has an atrocious government right now. Between his bad, late showing here, the Murdoch affair and his total inability to give the stagnating economy any impulses, Cameron should take responsibility and step down. I rank him barely above Berlusconi.
Posted by koadah on 2011-08-11 02:18:46
Where have you lived if you are "surprised by the segmentation of population groups in British major cities."?
It is impossible to eliminate racism but please tell us which countries are less racist.
Black people tend to live in poorer areas because generally speaking they have less money (rocket science). Inner city areas have poorer schools. Do you really think that the white kids in the same areas do any better?
Wages for the lower end jobs will stay low as we have a steady stream of EU labour that the government cannot do anything about. How are young people supposed to compete with all these people who are already experienced.
Everyone complains about the immigrants that arrived after they did. It's the way of the world. ;)
Yes, we want inner city programmes but if we couldn't figure it out when times were good it's hard to see where the money will come from now. Especially after burning everything down. ;)
Posted by JackassRampant on 2011-08-11 02:26:55
@PainState: That was intended to be hyperbole. I don't think we need to kill anybody, though I think it is very clear what is going on, that the Western world has been more-or-less bought and paid-for by a very few people from a very few industries. Sadly, I think it's a problem that tends to defy reasonable answers, so I don't have anything better than to hope for... for... an unreasonable solution? A miracle? An atrocity? No clue.
You speak as if you really believe that the new boss is guaranteed to be exactly the same as the old boss, and I'm here to tell you otherwise. We in Europe and America did it RIGHT for a long time, from WWII until the days of Maggie and Ronnie, when somehow we got screwed up on this idea that you don't have to be ever-vigilant for imbalance in the wonderful, directionless engine we call the market. Like somehow you can have this inherently artificial thing just produce everything you need through some mystical providence, and you don't have to prune it and manage it. As a result, it's grown wild, and it's choking itself off.
What to do? Certainly I don't advocate shooting bankers or oilmen. I do, however, lay the blame squarely at their feet, and I also think they're the only entities with sufficient resources to solve the problem (stole 'em fair and square). They're not going to just surrender their nascent oligarchy without a fight, and they have more influence on the instruments of government than the rest of the world put together. If that leaves me in a state of apoeria, and makes me wanna say "just kill 'em," frankly, I see that as pretty much the proper response. Not to kill 'em, but to be clear as to where we should direct our anger.
You speak as if you really believe that the new boss is guaranteed to be exactly the same as the old boss, and I'm here to tell you otherwise. We in Europe and America did it RIGHT for a long time, from WWII until the days of Maggie and Ronnie, when somehow we got screwed up on this idea that you don't have to be ever-vigilant for imbalance in the wonderful, directionless engine we call the market. Like somehow you can have this inherently artificial thing just produce everything you need through some mystical providence, and you don't have to prune it and manage it. As a result, it's grown wild, and it's choking itself off.
What to do? Certainly I don't advocate shooting bankers or oilmen. I do, however, lay the blame squarely at their feet, and I also think they're the only entities with sufficient resources to solve the problem (stole 'em fair and square). They're not going to just surrender their nascent oligarchy without a fight, and they have more influence on the instruments of government than the rest of the world put together. If that leaves me in a state of apoeria, and makes me wanna say "just kill 'em," frankly, I see that as pretty much the proper response. Not to kill 'em, but to be clear as to where we should direct our anger.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2011-08-11 02:31:02
@ koadah: surprisingly, it's not all segregated everywhere. Here in San Diego, we have neighborhoods that have one principal ethnicity (mostly Mexican and Vietnamese), but you find lots of people of all colors everywhere, including no shortage of whites in those neighborhoods.
Posted by koadah on 2011-08-11 02:46:26
@JackassRampant Soranos used the word "segmentation" London is definitely not segregated.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2011-08-11 03:34:35
Ah. K.
Posted by Royston on 2011-08-11 11:23:01
@soranos I am no longer struggling through. I have had a job non-stop for the past 16 years. 7 years ago I lucked out, joined a company on the bottom rung (way below my qualification levels) and have sought out higher paid jobs while I could in order to get myself and my family comfortable. Though my wife and I have to both work full time in order to support our lifestyle.
I know there are people in the world much worse off than I have ever been and ever could be but poverty levels are subjective to the country you live in. Fortunately for those less well off in Britain we have free education, free housing, free money and free healthcare. But there are ways and means for everyone on this country to rise above the free handouts by working hard.
I'm also very impressed with people like Chewie. Although he isn't with the mother of his child he still plays an active part on his life. More people should be like that. My elder brother has had exactly the same opportunities as I have on life yet has had 5 kids with 2 women, barely seeing any of them and using the state to pay for their upkeep. The differences between someone like him and someone like Chewie are what the government should be concentrating on to avoid this sort of thing happening again.
I know there are people in the world much worse off than I have ever been and ever could be but poverty levels are subjective to the country you live in. Fortunately for those less well off in Britain we have free education, free housing, free money and free healthcare. But there are ways and means for everyone on this country to rise above the free handouts by working hard.
I'm also very impressed with people like Chewie. Although he isn't with the mother of his child he still plays an active part on his life. More people should be like that. My elder brother has had exactly the same opportunities as I have on life yet has had 5 kids with 2 women, barely seeing any of them and using the state to pay for their upkeep. The differences between someone like him and someone like Chewie are what the government should be concentrating on to avoid this sort of thing happening again.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-11 11:41:22
Royston:
yes, well said sir.
yes, well said sir.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-11 13:10:29
Nothing is free. Not even if you're a looter.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-11 15:14:00
my love is free, Fouly.
so, play me?
so, play me?
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-08-11 18:42:25
Already did! Now stop bugging me and go out there and riot!
Posted by pythrr on 2011-08-11 18:44:55
post 100!
RIOTous.
RIOTous.
Posted by Chewie on 2011-08-12 02:29:04
That's just the thing Royston... i wish i had free healthcare, free housing and free money. I don't.
I have to pay all of my rent, I have to pay NHS charges. Granted, my education was free, but only because it's free to all.
The reason i have to pay is because i work.
I pay all of those bills with no help from the government and i pay taxes so that those that don't work can have all of those things that i pay for, paid for them.
And i wouldn't change that for the world. I have something that those mindless cretins who rioted this week don't have.
Self worth.
It's something that is lacking nowadays... and it's the fault of the parents that this is so.
I have to pay all of my rent, I have to pay NHS charges. Granted, my education was free, but only because it's free to all.
The reason i have to pay is because i work.
I pay all of those bills with no help from the government and i pay taxes so that those that don't work can have all of those things that i pay for, paid for them.
And i wouldn't change that for the world. I have something that those mindless cretins who rioted this week don't have.
Self worth.
It's something that is lacking nowadays... and it's the fault of the parents that this is so.
Posted by koadah on 2011-08-12 15:38:21
What healthcare do you pay for apart from prescription charges?
Try paying for a heart bypass or a hip replacement.
So some people on benefits may actually gross quite a lot. But unless they are also working/stealing/scamming that is even the best they can hope for bar the winning lottery ticket.
If you are working you can work towards promotion, a better job, maybe even owning the place.
Try paying for a heart bypass or a hip replacement.
So some people on benefits may actually gross quite a lot. But unless they are also working/stealing/scamming that is even the best they can hope for bar the winning lottery ticket.
If you are working you can work towards promotion, a better job, maybe even owning the place.
Posted by Royston on 2011-08-12 19:05:51
Healthcare in Britain comes out of our taxes. Oh and prescription charges only apply to those of us living in England.
Posted by ZachariasTheEverliving on 2011-08-13 04:08:25
Yeah gotta be honest here Chewie,
wouldnt it be better if you didnt have to pay for your NHS charges and rent. Wouldnt it be nice if instead of paying for our own lives we began living them, fulfilling them in a way that isnt influenced by the need to pay for rent or NHS.
Wouldnt that be a great society?
wouldnt it be better if you didnt have to pay for your NHS charges and rent. Wouldnt it be nice if instead of paying for our own lives we began living them, fulfilling them in a way that isnt influenced by the need to pay for rent or NHS.
Wouldnt that be a great society?
Posted by KenThis on 2011-08-13 13:31:33
I have been out of work for 9 months and have had only 1 reply to a job application form or cv in all that time. my benefits (JSA) barely covers the interest on the debts I accrued attending university working hard for an education that doesn't seem to be worth the price of the paper the certificates are printed on.
As such I want to see revolution, I want to see the end of a morally bankrupt government of haves screwing a financially bankrupt country of have nots. Nobody voted in this government. Nobody voted for them to make the deepest non-war cuts to essential services for a generation. The countries that tried to economise their way out of recession are looking to slide back in. Whereas the countries that tried to buy their way out of recession have mostly succeeded.
How can it be right that an entire class of people seemingly born into positions of power, where its who you know not what you know, should accuse the vast number of unemployed to do more to find work that just isn't there.
60+ applicants per graduate vacancy.
The hypocrisy sickens me.
I in no way condone the violence against people during the riots but I completely understand violence against this "big society", I would happily end it if I could.
In my opinion if the rioting has hastened the departure of this travesty of a government by just 1 day it was worth it.
That includes the bloodshed.
Democracy is government by the people for the people and the rioting shows there is a swathe of the population that desperately want change.
An entire generation is being stripped of dignity through the fault of a generation of plenty (babyboomers) who were never satisfied, never grateful, who believe that greed is good.
One more thing for anyone that thinks the majority of those on JSA are scroungers, workshy, lazy layabouts think again. spend a morning at a jobcentre and see the quality of man that walks through the doors. for every obvious scummy benefit cheat (and they are there) there are at least 9 like me, well turned out, well educated, looking for an opportunity to hold their heads a little higher.
So those with the jobs and moral outrage think again because man will only be trodden on so much. I have food in my belly and still have hope that my job is just round the corner.
But If I was hungry or lost all hope I would have been trying to burn this stinking country down while stealing what I could. And I believe with no food or no hope you would have aswell.
As such I want to see revolution, I want to see the end of a morally bankrupt government of haves screwing a financially bankrupt country of have nots. Nobody voted in this government. Nobody voted for them to make the deepest non-war cuts to essential services for a generation. The countries that tried to economise their way out of recession are looking to slide back in. Whereas the countries that tried to buy their way out of recession have mostly succeeded.
How can it be right that an entire class of people seemingly born into positions of power, where its who you know not what you know, should accuse the vast number of unemployed to do more to find work that just isn't there.
60+ applicants per graduate vacancy.
The hypocrisy sickens me.
I in no way condone the violence against people during the riots but I completely understand violence against this "big society", I would happily end it if I could.
In my opinion if the rioting has hastened the departure of this travesty of a government by just 1 day it was worth it.
That includes the bloodshed.
Democracy is government by the people for the people and the rioting shows there is a swathe of the population that desperately want change.
An entire generation is being stripped of dignity through the fault of a generation of plenty (babyboomers) who were never satisfied, never grateful, who believe that greed is good.
One more thing for anyone that thinks the majority of those on JSA are scroungers, workshy, lazy layabouts think again. spend a morning at a jobcentre and see the quality of man that walks through the doors. for every obvious scummy benefit cheat (and they are there) there are at least 9 like me, well turned out, well educated, looking for an opportunity to hold their heads a little higher.
So those with the jobs and moral outrage think again because man will only be trodden on so much. I have food in my belly and still have hope that my job is just round the corner.
But If I was hungry or lost all hope I would have been trying to burn this stinking country down while stealing what I could. And I believe with no food or no hope you would have aswell.