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2012-04-12 09:41:42
30 votes, rating 4.7
30 votes, rating 4.7
On luck and universal probability
Sometimes I wonder what drives people to this game.
Blood Bowl is, after all, a game of chance, where no amount of skill can completely save you from the fickle gods of dice. In my opinion, the skill of the player is most aptly demonstrated by how he or she minimizes the damage caused by the propability of shitty rolls bound to come up sooner or later. Heck, I've been throwing double triple skulls myself, even in a row.
Yet somehow at least I seem to bumb upon players who regard this game as a match of chess or go, in which there is absolutely no luck factor involved and the game seriously tests the participants' abilities to calculate and anticipate. This is an inherently chaotic game and sometimes the dice shall fall upon you in the most excruciatingly painful way, but hey, be a man about it. If you have been playing Blood Bowl for years and still bitch about luck being against you, in a non-jesting way, please find a game not so heavily influenced by luck.
I like Blood Bowl myself, and I like it as chaotic as it is. That's probably the exact WHY I like it. When I play Blood Bowl, I try to be a sport even when I'm being buttraped by the dice and complement my opponent when something fun happens, and I expect it from the other side too. I laugh on my bad luck and may curse the uncaring heavens, but I shall not stoop as low as to insult my opponent for winning the match "by blind luck", as some might call it.
Yes, sometimes the losing side had better armor, better skills, better guys and maybe even better tactics, but it is still merely a bonus in your chances. Throwing 3 dice on every block does not guarantee a knock down, it merely makes it more probable. There is no insta-win and this is no chess.
Now, gentlemen, could we play this game for fun again?
Blood Bowl is, after all, a game of chance, where no amount of skill can completely save you from the fickle gods of dice. In my opinion, the skill of the player is most aptly demonstrated by how he or she minimizes the damage caused by the propability of shitty rolls bound to come up sooner or later. Heck, I've been throwing double triple skulls myself, even in a row.
Yet somehow at least I seem to bumb upon players who regard this game as a match of chess or go, in which there is absolutely no luck factor involved and the game seriously tests the participants' abilities to calculate and anticipate. This is an inherently chaotic game and sometimes the dice shall fall upon you in the most excruciatingly painful way, but hey, be a man about it. If you have been playing Blood Bowl for years and still bitch about luck being against you, in a non-jesting way, please find a game not so heavily influenced by luck.
I like Blood Bowl myself, and I like it as chaotic as it is. That's probably the exact WHY I like it. When I play Blood Bowl, I try to be a sport even when I'm being buttraped by the dice and complement my opponent when something fun happens, and I expect it from the other side too. I laugh on my bad luck and may curse the uncaring heavens, but I shall not stoop as low as to insult my opponent for winning the match "by blind luck", as some might call it.
Yes, sometimes the losing side had better armor, better skills, better guys and maybe even better tactics, but it is still merely a bonus in your chances. Throwing 3 dice on every block does not guarantee a knock down, it merely makes it more probable. There is no insta-win and this is no chess.
Now, gentlemen, could we play this game for fun again?
Comments
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2012-04-12 09:57:26
agree. but i also carry sympathy for coaches that get their nerves cut by opponents making bad tactical moves and still winning by mere luck (mind: i am not in a position myself to claim that others make worse plays than i do and I would be more on the lucky side of the above equation myself). if they then "insult" anyone for winning "by blind luck" that might just be the truth. in any case, we will have to accept it anyway since this game involves dice. and the dice's only purpose is to fail you in the least favourable moment. as often as possible.
Posted by Calthor on 2012-04-12 10:17:25
On the one hand I completely agree with you. Blood Bowl is played for fun, madness... And part of a good player is minimising danger.
But you should realise that while there is a luck factor, there is also a genuine ability to calculate and anticipate involved. I do think saying your opponent won 'by blind luck' is bad sportsmanship and a bad outlook on the game, and there is indeed no insta-win, but you should also not underestimate how much coach skill matters. It influences the game more than you might think...
That said,
Let Madness Ensue!
But you should realise that while there is a luck factor, there is also a genuine ability to calculate and anticipate involved. I do think saying your opponent won 'by blind luck' is bad sportsmanship and a bad outlook on the game, and there is indeed no insta-win, but you should also not underestimate how much coach skill matters. It influences the game more than you might think...
That said,
Let Madness Ensue!
Posted by the_Sage on 2012-04-12 10:26:49
The discussion regarding skill vs luck is not the main point of this blog, I think.
The main point, as I see it, is that some coaches will get very insulting about someone getting lucky against them. Even if a coach makes a few mistakes and wins with some luck, that's no reason to turn on the nasty in chat. I've had this experience against two coaches on my blacklist whom I shall not name. I admitted that I was less experienced then they and that I'd made some mistakes (allowing an unnecessary surf somewhere), but won through luck (as in: needing 2 3+ rolls in a turn with elves). These coaches continued to rant endlessly how 'I was such a stupid noob, and he was obviously the superior coach'. And on that I agree wholly with Sherrypie, that's no way to behave.
The main point, as I see it, is that some coaches will get very insulting about someone getting lucky against them. Even if a coach makes a few mistakes and wins with some luck, that's no reason to turn on the nasty in chat. I've had this experience against two coaches on my blacklist whom I shall not name. I admitted that I was less experienced then they and that I'd made some mistakes (allowing an unnecessary surf somewhere), but won through luck (as in: needing 2 3+ rolls in a turn with elves). These coaches continued to rant endlessly how 'I was such a stupid noob, and he was obviously the superior coach'. And on that I agree wholly with Sherrypie, that's no way to behave.
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2012-04-12 11:18:26
true sage, and i don't carry any sympathy for that behaviour either. you can rant about nuffle as much as you want, but outright insulting the opposing coach is just bad. no matter what the circumstances are.
on a side note: succeeding 3+ 3+ is not particularly lucky at all (in fact a coin flip). lucky is: at even score, turn 15 you attempt a 2+ pass, 2+ catch for the score and you get intercepted on a 9+, the opponent then gfis twice, throws a pass on a 6+, scattering into the endzone being caught there by an ag1 player. and those things should be the fun that both coaches can laugh about for a while ... besides ranting about nuffle of course. ;-)
on a side note: succeeding 3+ 3+ is not particularly lucky at all (in fact a coin flip). lucky is: at even score, turn 15 you attempt a 2+ pass, 2+ catch for the score and you get intercepted on a 9+, the opponent then gfis twice, throws a pass on a 6+, scattering into the endzone being caught there by an ag1 player. and those things should be the fun that both coaches can laugh about for a while ... besides ranting about nuffle of course. ;-)
Posted by Chainsaw on 2012-04-12 11:50:34
I see nothing wrong in banter, cursing nuffle, complaining about dice...
...but when it gets personal? That's just over the line bub.
...but when it gets personal? That's just over the line bub.
Posted by Sherrypie on 2012-04-12 12:19:59
Calthor:
I don't recall saying this was a game without skill, far from it. I meant that this game is not chess, where everything happens exactly as it should, but a game where your skill as a player is seen by how you minimize the amount of shitty luck you have to endure. I never underestimated the coaches' skills, there are true masters of this art here and I myself am but a casual player.
My point here was indeed that as I play, I do so for the fun of it. No need to play a random game like this if not for the fun, aye? As a basis I expect other people to also be here playing because it is fun, and not because they want to screw someone else's day up. It just sometimes makes me want to go punch someone in the face when they get personal about impartial dice gods, blaming it all on the other player and insulting his/her playing skills or something even more personal.
I know my own playing style is pretty risky and sometimes I do try stunts involving half a dozen 3+ or worse skill throws, and I like it. I like the thrill, of doing something radical and "improbable". If it sometimes succeeds, that's cool. Really cool. If my opponents pull off something like that, I cheer and say "Nice move, dude!". But if my opponent sees me do so and rage quits because I'm a "lucky bastard who doesn't know a first thing about how to play" it's just plain awful. And it feels bad. There's sometimes no time to play a second match on the same day, and if the one memory that remains after the said game is that my opponent was a jerk, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
It might take away the urge to play at all for a while, and that ain't something anyone likes.
I don't recall saying this was a game without skill, far from it. I meant that this game is not chess, where everything happens exactly as it should, but a game where your skill as a player is seen by how you minimize the amount of shitty luck you have to endure. I never underestimated the coaches' skills, there are true masters of this art here and I myself am but a casual player.
My point here was indeed that as I play, I do so for the fun of it. No need to play a random game like this if not for the fun, aye? As a basis I expect other people to also be here playing because it is fun, and not because they want to screw someone else's day up. It just sometimes makes me want to go punch someone in the face when they get personal about impartial dice gods, blaming it all on the other player and insulting his/her playing skills or something even more personal.
I know my own playing style is pretty risky and sometimes I do try stunts involving half a dozen 3+ or worse skill throws, and I like it. I like the thrill, of doing something radical and "improbable". If it sometimes succeeds, that's cool. Really cool. If my opponents pull off something like that, I cheer and say "Nice move, dude!". But if my opponent sees me do so and rage quits because I'm a "lucky bastard who doesn't know a first thing about how to play" it's just plain awful. And it feels bad. There's sometimes no time to play a second match on the same day, and if the one memory that remains after the said game is that my opponent was a jerk, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
It might take away the urge to play at all for a while, and that ain't something anyone likes.
Posted by pythrr on 2012-04-12 13:36:24
cos its funny. that's why i play...
oh, and to mock Russo.
oh, and to mock Russo.
Posted by Calthor on 2012-04-12 14:13:10
In that case, I agree with you completely, Sherrypie! :D
Posted by Jeffro on 2012-04-12 16:52:01
+1 Sherrypie...
I've said it before and yet some folks still get their panties in a bunch over it, but go figure: Good dice is gonna win the dice game.
And this is a dice game. It's a fun, fantastical and strategerist dice game!!.. but a dice game. If you get pissy when you throw bad dice, don't throw dice dumbass. Iss as simpool as dat!! :D
I've said it before and yet some folks still get their panties in a bunch over it, but go figure: Good dice is gonna win the dice game.
And this is a dice game. It's a fun, fantastical and strategerist dice game!!.. but a dice game. If you get pissy when you throw bad dice, don't throw dice dumbass. Iss as simpool as dat!! :D
Posted by Corvidius on 2012-04-12 17:23:11
+1
I also dislike it if the same coach complains about luck after every match they don't win. It bugs me because it pretty much amounts to the same thing.
I also dislike it if the same coach complains about luck after every match they don't win. It bugs me because it pretty much amounts to the same thing.
Posted by Sherrypie on 2012-04-12 18:18:22
Yup, I once had the same opponent in Blackbox twice in a row and beat him both times. He was more experienced and played more solidly, without stretching his luck and making all those juicy one-dicers I did ( not simply because I could but to win), but in the end he lost both matches. And Nuffle, was he mad. At the end of the first match he was bad enough, the second he mostly pouted and cursed my luck.
Posted by RC on 2012-04-12 19:10:58
I think this game is less about maths and more about pattern recognision.
Posted by bghandras on 2012-04-12 20:33:02
... and sometimes a coach may realise that a series of safe action wont do the trick (in other words wont seriously hamper the opponents chances), and then decides to go all in with some stunts.
I was told many times that i had bad tactics doing so. It was funny to read that. Didnt my opponent realise i actually needed to try the improbable to improve my chances? Or just wanted to talk me out of my best bet? What are your guesses?
I was told many times that i had bad tactics doing so. It was funny to read that. Didnt my opponent realise i actually needed to try the improbable to improve my chances? Or just wanted to talk me out of my best bet? What are your guesses?
Posted by pythrr on 2012-04-12 20:53:22
huh?
who said it was about math?
it's about kill all mens.
who said it was about math?
it's about kill all mens.
Posted by Niebling on 2012-04-12 21:57:58
The worst thing is when a bad coach is whining and crying about being unlucky when really is just what he could expect playing the way he does.
The flip side of that is that its even worse losing to that coach that's doing all the wrong things (math wise) and still beating you, that's the kind of game that makes me want to stop playing (for about 30 min)
The flip side of that is that its even worse losing to that coach that's doing all the wrong things (math wise) and still beating you, that's the kind of game that makes me want to stop playing (for about 30 min)