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2012-02-23 11:08:50
29 votes, rating 3.7
29 votes, rating 3.7
The kick off table
Oh yes, this is a rant, and I easly authorize you to blame me and say all that "it's a dice game, if you don't want to roll dices play chess" stupid stuffs
I'm ranting not for dices... I can leave with a triple skull, with a rerolled triple skull, with a failed 2+ rerolled dodge that kill my best player... They are all in game events that fit perfectly in the flow of the match
But the kick-off tabel... how I hate it... it's capable of ruining a perfectly wonderfull, exciting and interesting match!
Blitz, Perfect defence and pitch invasion are completely out of sequence events that can screw up a great match. Can make your hardly fought and obtained draw, an easy win.
Your skilled opponent was so good in pressure that forced you to score 3 turn in advance, and a blitz or a perfect defence is capable of destroy any chance to him of scoring... not because of a bad block or a failed pickup, but because something happens out of the match, before it starts... Oh yes, I won... but not for any match event... I don't like it... it make me no proud of the victory
Now you're 1-1, you've your last chance to win, 2 turns... very hard to score in two turns (except for some teams)... but you can do it!! PITCH INVASION! Your team got crushed to half, while your opponent is untuched... LET ME ROLL THAT DAMN DOUBLE REROLLED SKULL and laught with my opponent at it
I like dice rolling... but during the match, not before it
And now, go on, throw at me all the trash that you have :D :D
I won't stop thinking that the kick-off table is a very bad designed thing attached to a good game. The game stay enought good to play it, but without that table (or a VERY LESS POWERFULL EVENT ONE), it will be better
I'm ranting not for dices... I can leave with a triple skull, with a rerolled triple skull, with a failed 2+ rerolled dodge that kill my best player... They are all in game events that fit perfectly in the flow of the match
But the kick-off tabel... how I hate it... it's capable of ruining a perfectly wonderfull, exciting and interesting match!
Blitz, Perfect defence and pitch invasion are completely out of sequence events that can screw up a great match. Can make your hardly fought and obtained draw, an easy win.
Your skilled opponent was so good in pressure that forced you to score 3 turn in advance, and a blitz or a perfect defence is capable of destroy any chance to him of scoring... not because of a bad block or a failed pickup, but because something happens out of the match, before it starts... Oh yes, I won... but not for any match event... I don't like it... it make me no proud of the victory
Now you're 1-1, you've your last chance to win, 2 turns... very hard to score in two turns (except for some teams)... but you can do it!! PITCH INVASION! Your team got crushed to half, while your opponent is untuched... LET ME ROLL THAT DAMN DOUBLE REROLLED SKULL and laught with my opponent at it
I like dice rolling... but during the match, not before it
And now, go on, throw at me all the trash that you have :D :D
I won't stop thinking that the kick-off table is a very bad designed thing attached to a good game. The game stay enought good to play it, but without that table (or a VERY LESS POWERFULL EVENT ONE), it will be better
Comments
Posted by Sp00keh on 2012-02-23 11:30:10
did u see the ranma elf vs oklsosksolololoholol (lizard) warpstone quarterfinal game?
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3259633
i was rooting for the lizards but the elves out played them. i don't want to spoil what happens, it'd be best if you could watch the replay without knowing the score, suffice to say kick off result at the end of regulation play pretty much decided the game, rather than the skill of the coaches
still, its part of the game though. setting up when receiving, you still have to have half a mind on the possibility of getting Blitz!'ed...
i think the main impact this random factor has is that it means you shouldn't give up, there's always a chance to score even if you thought it was impossible
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3259633
i was rooting for the lizards but the elves out played them. i don't want to spoil what happens, it'd be best if you could watch the replay without knowing the score, suffice to say kick off result at the end of regulation play pretty much decided the game, rather than the skill of the coaches
still, its part of the game though. setting up when receiving, you still have to have half a mind on the possibility of getting Blitz!'ed...
i think the main impact this random factor has is that it means you shouldn't give up, there's always a chance to score even if you thought it was impossible
Posted by Sp00keh on 2012-02-23 11:32:34
actually it wasn't a quarterfinal, was the round before that. eighthfinal? first round of finals?
Posted by SvenS on 2012-02-23 11:39:25
In some ways I agree but I have mixed feelings. I think it still adds some fun, but would prefer slightly less common blitzes. Like on 11 instead of 10
Posted by pythrr on 2012-02-23 11:41:52
pd and blitz are great
they mean that one can NEVER BE SURE of winning, and thus allow a wonderful aspect of risk and uncertainty in the game
it is not chess
they mean that one can NEVER BE SURE of winning, and thus allow a wonderful aspect of risk and uncertainty in the game
it is not chess
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2012-02-23 11:42:43
VERY much agree. roll weather at kick-off, that will do. all the rest is nonsense in my eyes, the game is funny enough already. it also has enough random element for sure, and the KickOff table only eventually takes away the last bit of strategy that was in a game.
Posted by Leilond on 2012-02-23 12:00:28
I perfecty understand the intended meaning. I simply find that it completely fail in its pourpose, and the only result is a bad thing attached to a very nice game
If the pitch say that I've to lose this match, I've to lose this match.
The fact that a rule is in a game manual doesn't mean that it fit that game well
This rule, for my mind, isn't part of the game... it's something bad attached to the game
If the pitch say that I've to lose this match, I've to lose this match.
The fact that a rule is in a game manual doesn't mean that it fit that game well
This rule, for my mind, isn't part of the game... it's something bad attached to the game
Posted by dode74 on 2012-02-23 12:05:16
I find myself in the unusual position of thinking that pythrr is talking sense.
Posted by hale on 2012-02-23 12:09:55
i kind of like the extra strategy PD and blitz provide. If you ignore the possibility of them happening when you setup then you'll be punished a lot worse than if you had calculated the chance of it happening and adjusted your strategy accordingly
Posted by King_Ghidra on 2012-02-23 12:13:21
I'm got some sympathy for this, though I like the principle, and I do think the events are a little too OP.
Heat exhaustion from the weather is another one that can just be too cruel.
I think some of them could just be reworked to make them less extreme. e.g. for pitch invasion and exhaustion, make it a 1 on a d8 rather than d6, or something like that. For blitz, make it so that only 1 defensive player can move (and blitz) if they wish. For perfect defence, allow maybe three players to move or something.
Spur of the moment thoughts, but you get the gist. Keep the events, tone down the impact. Random and fun is good, random and crippling is less good.
I actually wish weather changes were more common. I think the weather effects are mostly good fun and add tactical interest without crippling anyone, and it always drives me mad when you get weather change on kickoff and then stay with fair weather. I think on that kickoff result it should keep rerolling until you actually get something different to the current weather conditions.
Heat exhaustion from the weather is another one that can just be too cruel.
I think some of them could just be reworked to make them less extreme. e.g. for pitch invasion and exhaustion, make it a 1 on a d8 rather than d6, or something like that. For blitz, make it so that only 1 defensive player can move (and blitz) if they wish. For perfect defence, allow maybe three players to move or something.
Spur of the moment thoughts, but you get the gist. Keep the events, tone down the impact. Random and fun is good, random and crippling is less good.
I actually wish weather changes were more common. I think the weather effects are mostly good fun and add tactical interest without crippling anyone, and it always drives me mad when you get weather change on kickoff and then stay with fair weather. I think on that kickoff result it should keep rerolling until you actually get something different to the current weather conditions.
Posted by Ffoley on 2012-02-23 12:32:11
you can never be sure of winning regardless. the trouble with blitz is that its more likely to help the team ahead than the one behind. Games that were competetive and close become less so as the team that just conceded are denied a fair chance to get one back.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2012-02-23 12:33:35
I think the idea of the kick off table is fine but I agree that the swings it pruduces are too much, it could definitely do with being down toned down a little in my opinion.
Posted by Mattius on 2012-02-23 12:38:45
First of all, people seem to keep on forgetting that blitz and PD can very often backfire. I see it happen all the time. Regarding the Ranma Elf game, Ranma also got a Blitz and an Invasion in their favor. Its really only justice that things turned around.
Posted by the_Sage on 2012-02-23 12:44:25
I think moving blitz from a KOR of 10 (8.33%) to a KOR of 12 (2.77%) would already greatly improve matters. It's a freak occurrence, like double skulls, and should be correspondingly unlikely.
Posted by Ehlers on 2012-02-23 13:04:23
I really dont understand your post, seems more like contradicting really.
If pitch invasion, perfect defense and blitz ruin your game how come double skulls or snakes does not? Like Mattius said I have won due to blitz and the other player move all players forward to get him an advantage. I then do -2d and 1d and roll POW all day long making it possible to sprint a player down with the ball to get a TD.
You have set up your players in his half you are 1-1 and all that you dont need to roll is double skull. Double skull and you lose the match 1-2 because of another double skull next turn and he win the game with almost all his team in the box while you have almost all your team on the field.
Yes I hate it if I lose a game because of blitz, but yet again I dont want to get rid of it. It might be powerful, but it also create interesting games. It create uncertainty as pythrr point out.
If pitch invasion, perfect defense and blitz ruin your game how come double skulls or snakes does not? Like Mattius said I have won due to blitz and the other player move all players forward to get him an advantage. I then do -2d and 1d and roll POW all day long making it possible to sprint a player down with the ball to get a TD.
You have set up your players in his half you are 1-1 and all that you dont need to roll is double skull. Double skull and you lose the match 1-2 because of another double skull next turn and he win the game with almost all his team in the box while you have almost all your team on the field.
Yes I hate it if I lose a game because of blitz, but yet again I dont want to get rid of it. It might be powerful, but it also create interesting games. It create uncertainty as pythrr point out.
Posted by Calcium on 2012-02-23 13:14:05
Bollocks
Posted by Leilond on 2012-02-23 14:05:14
I'm surprised to read that there are a lot of people that agree with me! I supposed to be virtually put on fire, instead I find that someone thing I'm wrong (like I knew it could be) but someone think like me that the kick-off tabel, as it designed know, do not fit the game and do not seem to part of it but something "external", out of the game
Like saying "Roll 1d6 before the match begin, if you obtain 1, you start with one killed player, if you roll 6 you start with a scored TD"
Like saying "Roll 1d6 before the match begin, if you obtain 1, you start with one killed player, if you roll 6 you start with a scored TD"
Posted by PeteW on 2012-02-23 14:11:43
Hehehe. Blitz is the only one that realy annoys me. I got knocked out of a major after suffering 4 blitzes. That was frustrating.
However, when I get a blitz I whooop with glee.....
However, when I get a blitz I whooop with glee.....
Posted by Leilond on 2012-02-23 14:21:20
Well... not so much for me. When I got a blitz to use against my opponent, I usually feel guilty to use it... I know that I have to use it properly, because my opponent can get it the next drive and he will never leave that opportunity
But I would be ENORMOUSLY glad to find a match with someone that agree with me at the house rule "Do not use blitz! or perfect defense" or a less powerfull version of it (like moive only 1 or 2 players or something like
But I would be ENORMOUSLY glad to find a match with someone that agree with me at the house rule "Do not use blitz! or perfect defense" or a less powerfull version of it (like moive only 1 or 2 players or something like
Posted by pythrr on 2012-02-23 14:29:07
i rated this a 6 due to all the people agreeing with me.
ME!!
ME!!
Posted by blader4411 on 2012-02-23 14:45:04
Hey Leilond, pre-match agreements are illegal and will get you banned.
As for the rest of the post: nice whine/rant. Are you done now?
-Blader
As for the rest of the post: nice whine/rant. Are you done now?
-Blader
Posted by Raughri on 2012-02-23 14:52:18
After conceding 3 blitzes in one game, I gave up ranting about the kick off table.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3234484
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3234484
Posted by icesmooth on 2012-02-23 14:53:43
Truthfully I don't find the kickoff table a problem. While it's annoying if your opponent gets a blitz it is rarely fatal unless of course you're a coach who doesn't plan or set up for something to FAIL. (ie you blitz with a big guy, do an important action with a loner, etc...)
Posted by Leilond on 2012-02-23 17:52:59
Another "if you don't like blitz is because you're not able to correctly deploy your team"
Oh my dear fellow, do you ever suppose that I've got a mind? Can you belive that I can perfectly understand that you can deploy to minimize blitz! and perfect defense effect and still think they're totally bad designed?
Every time someone talk about a suposed flaw of the game, there is always someone that reply "It's because you're not able to play correctly"
If all these "you cannot play correctly" guys were right, it means the game is perfect and flawless...
Well, I think it isn't, there are tons of flaws. But I wasn't talking about "rule flaws", because the kick-off table isn't a rule flaw, it is simply a rule that, IN MY WAY OF SEEING THE FUN OF THIS GAME, is totally out of the game spirit, the skill test.
They can change the kick-off table like this and the game will not change at all
Roll 1d6
1 = One random attacker player is KO
2 = Attacker gain 1 TD
3-4 = Nothing happen
5 = Defender gain 1 TD
6 = One randome defendcer player is KO
Because this table, like the one in the rule, is a simple not match related event... it's a roll that randomly change the rules
Oh my dear fellow, do you ever suppose that I've got a mind? Can you belive that I can perfectly understand that you can deploy to minimize blitz! and perfect defense effect and still think they're totally bad designed?
Every time someone talk about a suposed flaw of the game, there is always someone that reply "It's because you're not able to play correctly"
If all these "you cannot play correctly" guys were right, it means the game is perfect and flawless...
Well, I think it isn't, there are tons of flaws. But I wasn't talking about "rule flaws", because the kick-off table isn't a rule flaw, it is simply a rule that, IN MY WAY OF SEEING THE FUN OF THIS GAME, is totally out of the game spirit, the skill test.
They can change the kick-off table like this and the game will not change at all
Roll 1d6
1 = One random attacker player is KO
2 = Attacker gain 1 TD
3-4 = Nothing happen
5 = Defender gain 1 TD
6 = One randome defendcer player is KO
Because this table, like the one in the rule, is a simple not match related event... it's a roll that randomly change the rules
Posted by harvestmouse on 2012-02-23 17:53:59
Good job you never played lrb 4 then.
Posted by freak_in_a_frock on 2012-02-23 18:30:19
The kick off table is fine. To change it would be to remove some of what makes the game fun. Blitz! and Perfect Defence are not at all game destroying. To complain that you shouldn't have to think about setting up with it in mind is like saying that when you play a game of football you shouldn't have to consider the weather.
Random things happen, and they change games. Deal with it. Move on. Better coaches deal with bad kickoffs better than poor coaches. Become a better coach...
Random things happen, and they change games. Deal with it. Move on. Better coaches deal with bad kickoffs better than poor coaches. Become a better coach...
Posted by Mattius on 2012-02-23 18:31:46
I really don't get why you find it unfair Leilond. Skaven are one of the races who will benefit the most from kick off results, regardless which way they go. If the other team hasn't got a tackle player deep to deal with the onsurge of gutter runners then they are gaining a valuable lesson.
We do see the Chaos,CHD and nurgle meta gamers have a good whine about kick off. But if we had it their way all teams would be these races and every game would be 1-0 2-1 depending on cas rolls. Kick off is one of the most fun parts of the game, removing it just brings us one step closer to minimal risk, bash meta gaming.
We do see the Chaos,CHD and nurgle meta gamers have a good whine about kick off. But if we had it their way all teams would be these races and every game would be 1-0 2-1 depending on cas rolls. Kick off is one of the most fun parts of the game, removing it just brings us one step closer to minimal risk, bash meta gaming.
Posted by Leilond on 2012-02-23 19:37:31
You suppose that I don't like blitz when I recive it
I don't like it even more when I got it... because I'm a skaven, with a kicker... and four MA9 rats + 1 MA7 blitzer are usually capable of forming a cage under the ball
I don't like it, not because "fair" or "unfair", but because it screw up the fun of the match, if I got it or my opponent got it
I don't like to win a match 4-0 (the day before yesterday) because I rolled 2 blitzes and 1 perfect defense
Not because of "a roll of dice" (I'm perfectly fine with double skull and snakes) but because this roll is completely out of the game sequence
Like rolling a dice at the beginning of a drive and if you roll 1 you have to randomly KO 1d6 players, because the rules say so... the rules can say bad things every now and then
I don't like it even more when I got it... because I'm a skaven, with a kicker... and four MA9 rats + 1 MA7 blitzer are usually capable of forming a cage under the ball
I don't like it, not because "fair" or "unfair", but because it screw up the fun of the match, if I got it or my opponent got it
I don't like to win a match 4-0 (the day before yesterday) because I rolled 2 blitzes and 1 perfect defense
Not because of "a roll of dice" (I'm perfectly fine with double skull and snakes) but because this roll is completely out of the game sequence
Like rolling a dice at the beginning of a drive and if you roll 1 you have to randomly KO 1d6 players, because the rules say so... the rules can say bad things every now and then
Posted by Sp00keh on 2012-02-23 19:52:51
"If pitch invasion, perfect defense and blitz ruin your game how come double skulls or snakes does not? "
the difference is you have literally no control over the kick table, but its always your own choice if you feel that attacking or dodging etc is worth the risks
the difference is you have literally no control over the kick table, but its always your own choice if you feel that attacking or dodging etc is worth the risks
Posted by Beerox on 2012-02-23 20:38:19
Blitz could stand to be less common than it is... otherwise the kickoff table is fine IMO. Some results throw a wrench in the gears, but blitz decides games. It should be 1 in 36.
Posted by Leilond on 2012-02-23 21:39:54
Why don't remove it
With pitch invasion
Heat exaustion
And all "out of game" events that can totally change the game result
With pitch invasion
Heat exaustion
And all "out of game" events that can totally change the game result
Posted by Ehlers on 2012-02-24 00:47:51
Leilond your table is even worser than the current kick off table. Because you get perfect defense does not auto makes you able to prevent a TD. Because you get blitz, does not mean you will auto get a TD.
Sp00keh:
Out of control? So let us remove wizard as it is out of your control if your player is hit by lightning or not. (and no in B you cant be sure not to meet a wizard nor in Ranked as people can still hire it during pre-match and more sure the other team does not get anything out of it if value is right between the two teams)
Let us remove weather because it hit Dwarf or Khemri very hard. Blizzard and Poring rain, nasty things for those 2 teams.
Let us remove KO-rolls as they are more game breaking than Kick off rolls and you dont have control over them at all. If unlucky 4 or more of your guys could refuse to get back on the pitch.
Sp00keh if you use the argument as of: "the difference is you have literally no control over the kick table, but its always your own choice if you feel that attacking or dodging etc is worth the risks", then lots of game mechanics should be removed from BB.
Sp00keh:
Out of control? So let us remove wizard as it is out of your control if your player is hit by lightning or not. (and no in B you cant be sure not to meet a wizard nor in Ranked as people can still hire it during pre-match and more sure the other team does not get anything out of it if value is right between the two teams)
Let us remove weather because it hit Dwarf or Khemri very hard. Blizzard and Poring rain, nasty things for those 2 teams.
Let us remove KO-rolls as they are more game breaking than Kick off rolls and you dont have control over them at all. If unlucky 4 or more of your guys could refuse to get back on the pitch.
Sp00keh if you use the argument as of: "the difference is you have literally no control over the kick table, but its always your own choice if you feel that attacking or dodging etc is worth the risks", then lots of game mechanics should be removed from BB.
Posted by Nightbird on 2012-02-24 03:14:30
I wouldn't mind the ability to turn off the KOT in the client.
Posted by Toombs on 2012-02-24 03:21:27
I really do think the kick off table is perfect as it is, the random events only makes it more exciting. As others have said, positioning players to deal with the blitz, or perfect defence. This game was made for crazy moments...
Posted by Leilond on 2012-02-24 10:21:51
I'm really surprise to see so much interested people on this blog post
I was only looking for some rant and some bad word in reply to rant a bit more
I found instead that I'm not the only one that feel the kick-off table something "out of the game thing attached to the game".
The fact that exists some rules that look like worse than perfect defence or blitz! (like the wizard for some people), do not make the first a good one
It's not a good "defensive line" to say that there are worse rules... worse do not make the bad good
I was only looking for some rant and some bad word in reply to rant a bit more
I found instead that I'm not the only one that feel the kick-off table something "out of the game thing attached to the game".
The fact that exists some rules that look like worse than perfect defence or blitz! (like the wizard for some people), do not make the first a good one
It's not a good "defensive line" to say that there are worse rules... worse do not make the bad good
Posted by Sp00keh on 2012-02-24 10:27:15
Ehlers : that's not what i'm saying. i think KO table is mostly ok, blitz is probably too powerful/frequent
but until this thread, i'd had no real inclination to complain about it, i accepted it as part of the game
what i am saying, is that i am pointing out the difference between 2 types of events in the BB game, because the difference between them is important:
-KO table and weather are under control of neither player.
-wizard, blocks, KO-recovery rolls, dodges, pickup rolls, etc etc are always under the control or influence of at least 1 player
i think the reason people get annoyed at KO table is that its not your opponent which is beating you, its not you beating your opponent. its not even the players throwing away the game to each other.
its the game itself which is beating you.
that's why these complaints.
there were comments earlier along the lines of 'if you don't like KO table, why play a game with any dice?'
which misses the point. most of the dice thrown in BB are part of a deliberate choice by one of the players. KO results, and weather, are not
but until this thread, i'd had no real inclination to complain about it, i accepted it as part of the game
what i am saying, is that i am pointing out the difference between 2 types of events in the BB game, because the difference between them is important:
-KO table and weather are under control of neither player.
-wizard, blocks, KO-recovery rolls, dodges, pickup rolls, etc etc are always under the control or influence of at least 1 player
i think the reason people get annoyed at KO table is that its not your opponent which is beating you, its not you beating your opponent. its not even the players throwing away the game to each other.
its the game itself which is beating you.
that's why these complaints.
there were comments earlier along the lines of 'if you don't like KO table, why play a game with any dice?'
which misses the point. most of the dice thrown in BB are part of a deliberate choice by one of the players. KO results, and weather, are not
Posted by garyt1 on 2012-02-29 15:39:15
I agree with Leilond. KO table can produce fun results but frequently can ruin games.
Pythrr mentions it gives people a chance but for example after scoring a td you often aren't the side needing a blitz type result.
When I got 9 players stunned by the crowd that was quite funny (and devastating) though.
Pythrr mentions it gives people a chance but for example after scoring a td you often aren't the side needing a blitz type result.
When I got 9 players stunned by the crowd that was quite funny (and devastating) though.