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2013-05-06 20:35:28
19 votes, rating 5.3
19 votes, rating 5.3
Ogre-In-A-Box Thoughts
All these recent discussions put me on the Ogre bandwagon, so I started a couple Box teams.
My first team started strong, but had an unfortunate bout of permanent injuries and couldn't keep up with the expenses.
My current team is doing pretty well–– 4/0/0 against Vampires, Necro, Skaven, and Dwarves.
Some of the craziest games I've ever seen–– Long Bomb by a Snotling for a game-winning TD, piles of squashed rats, epically wacky kick-off events... very, very fun.
I'm kinda at a loss about how to develop the team, though. I would love to hear some advice from someone who has experience running CRP Ogres in the Box.
Unfortunately, I can't seem to find anyone who has a built such a team and/or been successful running one. I do find a lot of strong LRB4 teams/coaches, but I think we can agree that those were very different times, and a very different roster.
These are the things I've been thinking about, the questions I've been looking for answers for, and (since I haven't yet found any answers) my working conclusions so far:
1) Is it good to pick-up a 6th Ogre ASAP? On one hand, you're playing to your strengths with so much muscle. However, it seems like this will invariably put you (with few skills of your own) into the 1200k bracket. That means you'll be facing rookie teams that have picked up ~10 skills. For most teams, those skills will be Block, Tackle, Guard, Dodge, Mighty Blow, and Piling On, all of which (even a single instance of) can have a massive effect on the Ogre gameplan. Even just 2 Guard players can be enough for an Orc, Chaos, or Dwarf team to out-muscle Ogres. A single Tackle/MB can mean 3-4 snotling casualties in the first half.
2) Are there any normal skills on a snotling which are worth it? It's hard to accept that a snotling (eyeing a 1TTD) with sprint––even with sprint and SF––could contribute more to a team's success than simply more snotlings. Diving Tackle seems like it could work, but most people will take a 3-die on a snotling if they can. Maybe a centerfield snotling with Catch to move the ball faster..? I'm contemplating simply firing any snotling who skills, but I'm open to hearing some success stories.
3) Doubles on Snots seems slightly more worth it, but not much. I haven't had any snots roll doubles yet, but I'm looking at Dirty Player and Leader. After that, Kick seems ok, although I struggle to see how I would take advantage of it (with no MA8 skink to rush into the backfield). A Wrestle/StripBall snot seems like a pipe-dream. Basically every double after Leader will be competing with DP, and I can't imagine that too many of them compare favorably. Sure Hands could save some RRs, but the problem is that snots move so slowly that you need 2 to cover the backfield (as opposed to just 1 skink), so when the kick goes the wrong way, it'll be wasted. Has anyone has success with Hail Mary Pass? Seems like it could work...
4) Assuming normals on Ogres, what sort of players should be developed? Piling On seems like an obvious first choice for almost everyone. I know a lot of coaches use Break Tackle, but I find that with decent positioning, it's rarely necessary; I can see it on 1 'Blitzer', or a dodger. The rest of the time–– just hit the guy, no? And how important is Guard? Does an Ogre brigade stacked with Guard work if they don't have Block? Other choices–– Stand Firm, Strong Arm, Juggernaut, Multiple Block–– it seems like these can't possibly be worth it. Firing Ogres if they reach the 3rd skill without doubles or +AG+AG seems like the best plan.
5) First double on an Ogre? It seems that a single Block will do little to improve the team dynamic, whereas a single Tackle can be the difference between a loss and a win against Elves, Zons, or Skaven. Unsure about this one.
6) Developing Ogres with more doubles? I've heard a lot of rumbling about Sure Hands on an Ogre carrier. But between Block, Dodge, and Pro (and Break Tackle and Guard as synergizing normal rolls) I can't figure out where there would be room for it. Assuming Block, should the next double be Pro or Dodge? I'm planning on Dodge, but I don't have enough experience here.
7) Is an Ogre carrier a good plan? I took +AG on an Ogre, but I acknowledge that it's quite a gamble. Until he gets Block, Dodge or more stats, it's pretty much wasted TV. More importantly, I feel like the Ogre team's one redeeming strength is that they have 6 Ogres for bashing. Using one to hold the ball cuts you down to 5. Assuming the answer is "yes, it's worth it", it seems daft to have an Ogre in the backfield–– surely he would be best closer to the line, since he's slow (+Bone head) and would be available to use his muscle if the defense put up a stronger fight than expected. But in that case, wouldn't Catch be better than Sure Hands?
8) I'm running 2 Rerolls, now. They sure are pricey. I haven't had the cash for more. I generally only use them for absolutely catastrophic moments–– Almost never on blocks, bone-head, or ball-handling. I can imagine not buying more, since (hopefully) as the team develops, the need for RRs will lessen.
9) Is an Apo worth it, early on? An apo seems wasted on a snotling. And Ogres don't get casualtied very often. My plan is to wait until I have an Ogre with doubles or two (i.e. a player worth saving). On the other hand, losing an Ogre early to a lucky LOS hit can be game-losing.
10) I've heard it suggested that maybe Ogres should kick first (if given the choice) so that they can devote all their energy into bashing, and (hopefully) cause enough damage to make the Offense feasible. I tried this once–– disastrous. I'm still intrigued by it, though.
Ideas? Comments?
Can anyone direct me to some coaches/teams that have successfully used the modern roster?
While I welcome theoretical answers, I'm much more interested in the proven practices of successful teams (especially since I can't spec games from the LRB4 era).
My first team started strong, but had an unfortunate bout of permanent injuries and couldn't keep up with the expenses.
My current team is doing pretty well–– 4/0/0 against Vampires, Necro, Skaven, and Dwarves.
Some of the craziest games I've ever seen–– Long Bomb by a Snotling for a game-winning TD, piles of squashed rats, epically wacky kick-off events... very, very fun.
I'm kinda at a loss about how to develop the team, though. I would love to hear some advice from someone who has experience running CRP Ogres in the Box.
Unfortunately, I can't seem to find anyone who has a built such a team and/or been successful running one. I do find a lot of strong LRB4 teams/coaches, but I think we can agree that those were very different times, and a very different roster.
These are the things I've been thinking about, the questions I've been looking for answers for, and (since I haven't yet found any answers) my working conclusions so far:
1) Is it good to pick-up a 6th Ogre ASAP? On one hand, you're playing to your strengths with so much muscle. However, it seems like this will invariably put you (with few skills of your own) into the 1200k bracket. That means you'll be facing rookie teams that have picked up ~10 skills. For most teams, those skills will be Block, Tackle, Guard, Dodge, Mighty Blow, and Piling On, all of which (even a single instance of) can have a massive effect on the Ogre gameplan. Even just 2 Guard players can be enough for an Orc, Chaos, or Dwarf team to out-muscle Ogres. A single Tackle/MB can mean 3-4 snotling casualties in the first half.
2) Are there any normal skills on a snotling which are worth it? It's hard to accept that a snotling (eyeing a 1TTD) with sprint––even with sprint and SF––could contribute more to a team's success than simply more snotlings. Diving Tackle seems like it could work, but most people will take a 3-die on a snotling if they can. Maybe a centerfield snotling with Catch to move the ball faster..? I'm contemplating simply firing any snotling who skills, but I'm open to hearing some success stories.
3) Doubles on Snots seems slightly more worth it, but not much. I haven't had any snots roll doubles yet, but I'm looking at Dirty Player and Leader. After that, Kick seems ok, although I struggle to see how I would take advantage of it (with no MA8 skink to rush into the backfield). A Wrestle/StripBall snot seems like a pipe-dream. Basically every double after Leader will be competing with DP, and I can't imagine that too many of them compare favorably. Sure Hands could save some RRs, but the problem is that snots move so slowly that you need 2 to cover the backfield (as opposed to just 1 skink), so when the kick goes the wrong way, it'll be wasted. Has anyone has success with Hail Mary Pass? Seems like it could work...
4) Assuming normals on Ogres, what sort of players should be developed? Piling On seems like an obvious first choice for almost everyone. I know a lot of coaches use Break Tackle, but I find that with decent positioning, it's rarely necessary; I can see it on 1 'Blitzer', or a dodger. The rest of the time–– just hit the guy, no? And how important is Guard? Does an Ogre brigade stacked with Guard work if they don't have Block? Other choices–– Stand Firm, Strong Arm, Juggernaut, Multiple Block–– it seems like these can't possibly be worth it. Firing Ogres if they reach the 3rd skill without doubles or +AG+AG seems like the best plan.
5) First double on an Ogre? It seems that a single Block will do little to improve the team dynamic, whereas a single Tackle can be the difference between a loss and a win against Elves, Zons, or Skaven. Unsure about this one.
6) Developing Ogres with more doubles? I've heard a lot of rumbling about Sure Hands on an Ogre carrier. But between Block, Dodge, and Pro (and Break Tackle and Guard as synergizing normal rolls) I can't figure out where there would be room for it. Assuming Block, should the next double be Pro or Dodge? I'm planning on Dodge, but I don't have enough experience here.
7) Is an Ogre carrier a good plan? I took +AG on an Ogre, but I acknowledge that it's quite a gamble. Until he gets Block, Dodge or more stats, it's pretty much wasted TV. More importantly, I feel like the Ogre team's one redeeming strength is that they have 6 Ogres for bashing. Using one to hold the ball cuts you down to 5. Assuming the answer is "yes, it's worth it", it seems daft to have an Ogre in the backfield–– surely he would be best closer to the line, since he's slow (+Bone head) and would be available to use his muscle if the defense put up a stronger fight than expected. But in that case, wouldn't Catch be better than Sure Hands?
8) I'm running 2 Rerolls, now. They sure are pricey. I haven't had the cash for more. I generally only use them for absolutely catastrophic moments–– Almost never on blocks, bone-head, or ball-handling. I can imagine not buying more, since (hopefully) as the team develops, the need for RRs will lessen.
9) Is an Apo worth it, early on? An apo seems wasted on a snotling. And Ogres don't get casualtied very often. My plan is to wait until I have an Ogre with doubles or two (i.e. a player worth saving). On the other hand, losing an Ogre early to a lucky LOS hit can be game-losing.
10) I've heard it suggested that maybe Ogres should kick first (if given the choice) so that they can devote all their energy into bashing, and (hopefully) cause enough damage to make the Offense feasible. I tried this once–– disastrous. I'm still intrigued by it, though.
Ideas? Comments?
Can anyone direct me to some coaches/teams that have successfully used the modern roster?
While I welcome theoretical answers, I'm much more interested in the proven practices of successful teams (especially since I can't spec games from the LRB4 era).
Comments
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2013-05-06 20:49:13
The problem with Ogre teams seems to be the bench.
It's not losing players in the game that's seems to be the killer, but MNG's. As soon as you start going into games with 12 players or less you are in trouble.
It's a shame teams like this can't have a 20 players team (with the standard restriction of only 16 players for the match), as the cycle of MNG Snotlings seems difficult to break.
It's not losing players in the game that's seems to be the killer, but MNG's. As soon as you start going into games with 12 players or less you are in trouble.
It's a shame teams like this can't have a 20 players team (with the standard restriction of only 16 players for the match), as the cycle of MNG Snotlings seems difficult to break.
Posted by cameronhawkins on 2013-05-06 21:57:45
@DukeTyrion
So far, I haven't actually haven't had any problems running out of snots, and I usually start with only 6-7. I hope to pick up more, later.
I notice you started your team with more snots and only 4 Ogres. I opted for the Ogre because just couldn't get around the idea that 4 Ogres + Snots just seems like a super-weak Khemri team–– Khemri being far from the winningest team to begin with.
So far, I haven't actually haven't had any problems running out of snots, and I usually start with only 6-7. I hope to pick up more, later.
I notice you started your team with more snots and only 4 Ogres. I opted for the Ogre because just couldn't get around the idea that 4 Ogres + Snots just seems like a super-weak Khemri team–– Khemri being far from the winningest team to begin with.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-06 21:59:00
It's like having bad B.O...
Something obvious is wrong but you're unaware of it and nobody has the sense to explain it to you.
Try some antiperspirant. Not that it'll help with your blog ratings, but maybe you need it anyway.
Something obvious is wrong but you're unaware of it and nobody has the sense to explain it to you.
Try some antiperspirant. Not that it'll help with your blog ratings, but maybe you need it anyway.
Posted by cameronhawkins on 2013-05-06 21:59:04
I'm long accustomed to my blogs being degraded as the utter filth and waste of space that they are.
But I'm also intensely curious about the person who just rated this a '1'.
Calcium and Pythrr are offline...
Can my Ogre musings really be so deeply offensive?
Or have I picked up YET ANOTHER detractor to add to my burgeoning flock?
But I'm also intensely curious about the person who just rated this a '1'.
Calcium and Pythrr are offline...
Can my Ogre musings really be so deeply offensive?
Or have I picked up YET ANOTHER detractor to add to my burgeoning flock?
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2013-05-06 22:59:22
cameron, I went with 4 Ogres so that I could afford more rerolls, with the intention of getting Ogres later, although it hasn't really worked out :-P
As for who rated your Blog a 1, I would hazard a guess at one of the 4 coaches you beat.
As for who rated your Blog a 1, I would hazard a guess at one of the 4 coaches you beat.
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-05-06 23:16:57
Of course the +AG ogre doesn't get catch or sure hands. Block and dodge.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2013-05-06 23:19:56
Offensive blog rated 1? Doubt it.
My guess would be TL:DR rated 1.
My guess would be TL:DR rated 1.
Posted by jimimothybodles on 2013-05-07 00:02:50
All i can say is, what was the question?
You seem to have thought of every possible angle, and have a winning team... so... why are you bother us all with this?! just carry on doing what you're doing!!
The only input i have is: Ogres are my favourite race to play with. There is a strong inverse correlation between TV and number of wins. Maybe i'm just rubbish at team/skill management, but at higher than about 1100TV, my ogres suck!
You seem to have thought of every possible angle, and have a winning team... so... why are you bother us all with this?! just carry on doing what you're doing!!
The only input i have is: Ogres are my favourite race to play with. There is a strong inverse correlation between TV and number of wins. Maybe i'm just rubbish at team/skill management, but at higher than about 1100TV, my ogres suck!
Posted by cameronhawkins on 2013-05-07 01:06:33
Yeah, but I've played 11 box games of Ogres.
My team can't be the only Box Ogres with a winning record.
Somebody must have done this before.
Besides–– I only know about very low-TV games.
My team can't be the only Box Ogres with a winning record.
Somebody must have done this before.
Besides–– I only know about very low-TV games.
Posted by PainState on 2013-05-07 01:56:50
My only iaaue with this is question taking +AG on an ogre.
A 3 AG ogre picks up the ball on 3+, same as most races who do just fine with that.
2} the idea that he will bone head. You deal with that every turn on every ogre...now all of a sudden it is a serious concern?
3} 5 ogres on the LOS are just fine. Do not worry the 6th will be on his way in a turn or two to add his blitz move to your offensive charge down the field.
4} in the end..would you rather have some low down ST1 snot running with the ball or a STR5 studly ogre who is immune to all feeble blitz moves under ST5 or higher?
Never question +AG on an ogre..never. Plus if you do not take the first AG then you can never, ever get the second +AG coupled with sure hands and break tackle.
A 3 AG ogre picks up the ball on 3+, same as most races who do just fine with that.
2} the idea that he will bone head. You deal with that every turn on every ogre...now all of a sudden it is a serious concern?
3} 5 ogres on the LOS are just fine. Do not worry the 6th will be on his way in a turn or two to add his blitz move to your offensive charge down the field.
4} in the end..would you rather have some low down ST1 snot running with the ball or a STR5 studly ogre who is immune to all feeble blitz moves under ST5 or higher?
Never question +AG on an ogre..never. Plus if you do not take the first AG then you can never, ever get the second +AG coupled with sure hands and break tackle.
Posted by Nelphine on 2013-05-07 05:18:57
My ogre team only has a 2/5/6 record; however, I disregard the first 4 games (0/1/3), as that was a very long time ago, and I really had no idea what I was getting into. This leave me with 2/4/3. Doesn't look good; but I got diced out of 2 wins and a draw in the last turns of the respective games. This leaves me with an 'almost' 4/3/2 record. Obviously NOT the real record, but with better dice or coaching (and I believe many coaches are better than me) in similar games, that would have been the record.
Is this worthy of being listened to? I have no idea. But i'm going to talk anyway.
First:
Always take +Agi on at least one ogre. Heck, 2 ogres. More than that is a waste.
Second:
I have never ran with more than 11 players. This has not been a problem yet. Many people mutter dark words about being outnumbered; bah. That only matters if your opponent has clawpomb, because all other opponents isolate ogres and run away from them. For an extreme example, against elves who were playing 'blitz-a-snot', I fouled 10 times, and still finished the game with 7 players. Obviously, you can't plan on that, but if you base your entire game plan around 2 snotlings, then 5 snotlings IS a bench. And then..
Third:
ALL YOUR MONEY should be spent on ogres. This means an apo as soon as possible is HUGELY worth it, because ogre cas may be rare, but they certainly do happen. And when I have less than 5 ogres, I lose. (Starting with less than 6 is usually an uphill battle too, but this may be a result of my bench policy).
Fourth:
I Think I'm in the camp of 1 tackle ogre as soon as possible, as my tackler has been invaluable to me.
Fifth:
But my Sure Hands ogre has been even better. He makes elves change their game plan (although I still can't beat elves), and he single handedly runs in touchdowns against bash teams, to the point where I will literally save all my re-rolls just for his boneheads.
Sixth:
The ONLY use of re-rolls is: Boneheads (when ball related - either picking it up, moving it, or blitzing it) and blocks (when they lead up to a ball action. If the ball actions are done, your ogre gets to flop around on the ground and eat it) and POSSIBLY snotling ball pick ups. Maybe. If the snotling will surely get to safety (meaning: he can score before an opponent can hit him) I would re-roll a pick up. Otherwise, probably not, since he'll probably just go down and you'll have to pick it up again anyway.
Seventh:
Piling on seems terribad. Bonehead makes you lose so many tackle zones, giving up more seems like a ridiculously bad idea. I only use my single piling on late in a drive when that ogre cannot do anything remotely related to the ball any more.
Eigth:
I'm probably still way too rookie for any of this to mean much. HAVE FUN WITH OGRES!
Is this worthy of being listened to? I have no idea. But i'm going to talk anyway.
First:
Always take +Agi on at least one ogre. Heck, 2 ogres. More than that is a waste.
Second:
I have never ran with more than 11 players. This has not been a problem yet. Many people mutter dark words about being outnumbered; bah. That only matters if your opponent has clawpomb, because all other opponents isolate ogres and run away from them. For an extreme example, against elves who were playing 'blitz-a-snot', I fouled 10 times, and still finished the game with 7 players. Obviously, you can't plan on that, but if you base your entire game plan around 2 snotlings, then 5 snotlings IS a bench. And then..
Third:
ALL YOUR MONEY should be spent on ogres. This means an apo as soon as possible is HUGELY worth it, because ogre cas may be rare, but they certainly do happen. And when I have less than 5 ogres, I lose. (Starting with less than 6 is usually an uphill battle too, but this may be a result of my bench policy).
Fourth:
I Think I'm in the camp of 1 tackle ogre as soon as possible, as my tackler has been invaluable to me.
Fifth:
But my Sure Hands ogre has been even better. He makes elves change their game plan (although I still can't beat elves), and he single handedly runs in touchdowns against bash teams, to the point where I will literally save all my re-rolls just for his boneheads.
Sixth:
The ONLY use of re-rolls is: Boneheads (when ball related - either picking it up, moving it, or blitzing it) and blocks (when they lead up to a ball action. If the ball actions are done, your ogre gets to flop around on the ground and eat it) and POSSIBLY snotling ball pick ups. Maybe. If the snotling will surely get to safety (meaning: he can score before an opponent can hit him) I would re-roll a pick up. Otherwise, probably not, since he'll probably just go down and you'll have to pick it up again anyway.
Seventh:
Piling on seems terribad. Bonehead makes you lose so many tackle zones, giving up more seems like a ridiculously bad idea. I only use my single piling on late in a drive when that ogre cannot do anything remotely related to the ball any more.
Eigth:
I'm probably still way too rookie for any of this to mean much. HAVE FUN WITH OGRES!
Posted by Nelphine on 2013-05-07 05:25:48
I don't suggest playing the bash game with ogres. Bonehead and lack of block makes it too unreliable. Not that balling with them is any better, but I generally just don't plan anything except 'get 6 ogres on top of ball'. If I can score after that, wahoo!
Snotling skills: Sneaky git. Oh, it's a waste you say? Yes it is. So are all other snotling skills. At least this way you can foul every single turn and hopefully scare your opponent into a different (less good?) tactic. Any other skill says to me: This snotling needs to survive to use his skill! And snotlings don't survive. So if they get any other skills, LOS THEM! But I would never retire one, due to wanting all my money for my ogres.
Ogre skills: 1 or 2 guards to counter those nasty guard teams out there is awesome. Break tackle EVERYWHERE is awesome, because with bonehead you never REALLY know which ogre is going to be the key to your drive. That being said, I don't have that much experience with ogre normal skills.
Snotling skills: Sneaky git. Oh, it's a waste you say? Yes it is. So are all other snotling skills. At least this way you can foul every single turn and hopefully scare your opponent into a different (less good?) tactic. Any other skill says to me: This snotling needs to survive to use his skill! And snotlings don't survive. So if they get any other skills, LOS THEM! But I would never retire one, due to wanting all my money for my ogres.
Ogre skills: 1 or 2 guards to counter those nasty guard teams out there is awesome. Break tackle EVERYWHERE is awesome, because with bonehead you never REALLY know which ogre is going to be the key to your drive. That being said, I don't have that much experience with ogre normal skills.
Posted by nufflehatesme on 2013-05-07 06:36:17
go ogres! i have probably played 50 games with the buggers, so here is my 2c
1)in league, yes. in the box, i dont think so. i find 4 to be optimal, but normally get 5 to cover mng. reason being TV.
6 ogres =780
8 snots = 160
3 rerolls = 210
1 apo = 50
5 ff = 50
that is 1250tv before skills.
2) diving tackle. always handy, just mark downed players next to ogres so they cant dodge away. still bloaty.
3) dp and leader. no other comes close
4)1st ogre gets guard for me. makes 3d blocks on the los that much easier. after that a mix of break tackle, guard, and stand firm.
5) sure hands. without a sure hands ogre you auto lose to elves with strip ball. snots make terrible ball carriers too. too easy to blitz when half your ogres go bonehead. at least when that happens with an ogre ball carrier, you can crowd snots around him to make it difficult to get a 2d block. taking tackle over block is definitely an option as well for an ogre.
6) ogre with sure hands - block, dodge. ogre with block - tackle, frenzy, dodge are all good.
7) only way to be competitive imo. surehands over +ag though. if i have a surehands ogre i would probably skip the +ag as it is pretty bloaty.
8) leader snot is golden
9)yep.
10) i rarely get a good result with ogres if i kick first. you need to thin your opponents numbers from t1, and what better way than 4 blocks and a gang foul?
1)in league, yes. in the box, i dont think so. i find 4 to be optimal, but normally get 5 to cover mng. reason being TV.
6 ogres =780
8 snots = 160
3 rerolls = 210
1 apo = 50
5 ff = 50
that is 1250tv before skills.
2) diving tackle. always handy, just mark downed players next to ogres so they cant dodge away. still bloaty.
3) dp and leader. no other comes close
4)1st ogre gets guard for me. makes 3d blocks on the los that much easier. after that a mix of break tackle, guard, and stand firm.
5) sure hands. without a sure hands ogre you auto lose to elves with strip ball. snots make terrible ball carriers too. too easy to blitz when half your ogres go bonehead. at least when that happens with an ogre ball carrier, you can crowd snots around him to make it difficult to get a 2d block. taking tackle over block is definitely an option as well for an ogre.
6) ogre with sure hands - block, dodge. ogre with block - tackle, frenzy, dodge are all good.
7) only way to be competitive imo. surehands over +ag though. if i have a surehands ogre i would probably skip the +ag as it is pretty bloaty.
8) leader snot is golden
9)yep.
10) i rarely get a good result with ogres if i kick first. you need to thin your opponents numbers from t1, and what better way than 4 blocks and a gang foul?
Posted by the.tok on 2013-05-07 10:24:28
My take on your questions, but note that I play only in Ranked, so the environment is different
1) Everything in this team is bloat anyway, from the first ogre :D
2) DT helps greatly. You have titchy which is bad, but with DT, you suddenly have a quality TZ. That doesn't mean you have to base opposing players, but that helps protecting your ball carrier/ensure he has to blitz this snot. Plus sometimes your opponent forgets about it ;)
3) DP is really good. Trading a snot with any other player is a good deal. I tried kick, and it proved to be more useful than I thought. Sure, you don't have high MA, but you can threaten to TTM. Or even just slow down your opponent or make him roll a longer pass when he has few turns to score.
I tried a wrestle+DT snot,and he is actually really useful too. Even with 1ST, if he's next to a guard ogre, there are some situation where all he can get is a 2db, and if he hasn't got tackle...
4)PO is good on one ogre, for those turns where you're only looking to cause damage. But otherwise, you can't afford to use it eveyturn, you already have few real tackle zones on the field, and you have MA5... the skills I like are break tackle and guard. When all your ogres have the 2 skills, you can engineer a 3db blitz quite often, by repositioning. Juggernaut is not too bad, for your PO ogre if he doesn't get block. One Grab also can help, cause blodge sidestep are really a nuisance to ogres.
5)Block. So valuable!
6) Block + Surehands is a dream, but I couldn't get any 2 double ogre, and I think I need a block/tackle even more
7) Yes yes yes! Carrying the ball with a snot is not a good idea against several teams (slanns, WE, skavens...) as they will reach you ball carrier inside your cage sooner or later. If they get a shot, it better not be a 3db, but a -2db ;)
The important skill here is break tackle. A 5st ball carrier is not easy to bring down, so if you can't be easily tied up, you can be hard to stop from scoring
No to catch. The point or surehands is to negate strip ball which is a big weakness for ogres.
8) Lack of block, BH, no reliable players means RR are a problem. I feel like I could use 8 RR sometimes ^^
To me, 3/4RR including leader is the right spot. I went for 4 and use them all the time, but again, it's ranked, so tv is less an issue
9) Ogre cas are rare, but they are expensive, and being 1 ogre down is harsh, 2 ogres down and you're pretty much screwed :/ I would say it's worth it, but you can take the risk for a few games.
10) I tried and against bash, I am not convinced. I think the opportunity of 3 3db + gangfoul on LOS means you can often start with at least one KO, and work your offense from there.
Grats on the record Btw, but be warned that ogres get worse and worse as tv rises ;)
1) Everything in this team is bloat anyway, from the first ogre :D
2) DT helps greatly. You have titchy which is bad, but with DT, you suddenly have a quality TZ. That doesn't mean you have to base opposing players, but that helps protecting your ball carrier/ensure he has to blitz this snot. Plus sometimes your opponent forgets about it ;)
3) DP is really good. Trading a snot with any other player is a good deal. I tried kick, and it proved to be more useful than I thought. Sure, you don't have high MA, but you can threaten to TTM. Or even just slow down your opponent or make him roll a longer pass when he has few turns to score.
I tried a wrestle+DT snot,and he is actually really useful too. Even with 1ST, if he's next to a guard ogre, there are some situation where all he can get is a 2db, and if he hasn't got tackle...
4)PO is good on one ogre, for those turns where you're only looking to cause damage. But otherwise, you can't afford to use it eveyturn, you already have few real tackle zones on the field, and you have MA5... the skills I like are break tackle and guard. When all your ogres have the 2 skills, you can engineer a 3db blitz quite often, by repositioning. Juggernaut is not too bad, for your PO ogre if he doesn't get block. One Grab also can help, cause blodge sidestep are really a nuisance to ogres.
5)Block. So valuable!
6) Block + Surehands is a dream, but I couldn't get any 2 double ogre, and I think I need a block/tackle even more
7) Yes yes yes! Carrying the ball with a snot is not a good idea against several teams (slanns, WE, skavens...) as they will reach you ball carrier inside your cage sooner or later. If they get a shot, it better not be a 3db, but a -2db ;)
The important skill here is break tackle. A 5st ball carrier is not easy to bring down, so if you can't be easily tied up, you can be hard to stop from scoring
No to catch. The point or surehands is to negate strip ball which is a big weakness for ogres.
8) Lack of block, BH, no reliable players means RR are a problem. I feel like I could use 8 RR sometimes ^^
To me, 3/4RR including leader is the right spot. I went for 4 and use them all the time, but again, it's ranked, so tv is less an issue
9) Ogre cas are rare, but they are expensive, and being 1 ogre down is harsh, 2 ogres down and you're pretty much screwed :/ I would say it's worth it, but you can take the risk for a few games.
10) I tried and against bash, I am not convinced. I think the opportunity of 3 3db + gangfoul on LOS means you can often start with at least one KO, and work your offense from there.
Grats on the record Btw, but be warned that ogres get worse and worse as tv rises ;)
Posted by cameronhawkins on 2013-05-07 12:48:48
Since posting, I've played 5 more games––
Orcs (win)
High Elves (tie)
Wood Elves (loss)
Wood Elves (loss)
High Elves (tie)
My dice on the Wood Elf games we quite poor, but it's opened my eyes that I should expect more Bone Head. It's also made me realize how poor the roster really is–– if 3 Ogres go BH, your drive is finished. I'm taking this as a signal that I should pick up more Ogres. I was hesitant, because I wanted to skill a few for reliability before bringing in more liability. But more Ogres should mean more cushioning agains chronic BH.
On a side-note, I think the racial-modifier used in CR adjustment is whacked for Ogres. How can I tie against High Elves and have my CR drop 1 point? With Goblins or Halflings, it shoots up if you do anything but lose, and those races are far, far more forgiving.
@Nelphine: I agree with much of what you say, with the following exceptions:
1) Using a doubles to take Sure-Hands, on the off-chance that you'll meet an Elf team with a skill that they don't start with? Sorry–– not buying it. I have faced 4 elf team–– and none of them had a Stripper. The real terror was the MB/Tackle Wardancer. I may, at some point, face a team that has a threat like this, but I can't see Sure-Hands as the game-decider. And in the mean-time, Block or Dodge will be infinitely more useful.
2) Sneaky Git on a snot?? You must have hit the vodka too hard. You're honestly telling me that 1 snot with Sneaky Git is better than 2 unskilled snots? I think if you consider the math there for about 2 seconds you'll see that this pretty ridiculous. Sneaky Git kicks in on 1,1; 2,2; and sometimes 3,3–– Let's say 2.5 rolls out of 36. I would have to foul ~30 times in a game with •that particular snotling• before I accrued any advantage over simply having another snot. And that snotling will not always be the one in position, nor will he always be still conscious. Even if you do something outrageous like •triple, quadruple or quintuple• the game-impact, to account for occasional and unspecified 'situation advantages' (like the ability to pull the odd unassisted foul when you otherwise wouldn't), it still is pathetically dismal. Sure Feet looks like a much safer bet.
3) Skeptical about excessive BT. Looks like another way to roll more dice, waste more RRs, and suffer more Turnovers.
4) I see your point, but I think you need to be judicious about when to use it. Other than DT/SS, POMB is the only mainstream combo that Ogres can pull off. Ever seen a Black Orc take Break Tackle and Guard as their first skill? I thought not. But PO/MB? We can do that do!
Orcs (win)
High Elves (tie)
Wood Elves (loss)
Wood Elves (loss)
High Elves (tie)
My dice on the Wood Elf games we quite poor, but it's opened my eyes that I should expect more Bone Head. It's also made me realize how poor the roster really is–– if 3 Ogres go BH, your drive is finished. I'm taking this as a signal that I should pick up more Ogres. I was hesitant, because I wanted to skill a few for reliability before bringing in more liability. But more Ogres should mean more cushioning agains chronic BH.
On a side-note, I think the racial-modifier used in CR adjustment is whacked for Ogres. How can I tie against High Elves and have my CR drop 1 point? With Goblins or Halflings, it shoots up if you do anything but lose, and those races are far, far more forgiving.
@Nelphine: I agree with much of what you say, with the following exceptions:
1) Using a doubles to take Sure-Hands, on the off-chance that you'll meet an Elf team with a skill that they don't start with? Sorry–– not buying it. I have faced 4 elf team–– and none of them had a Stripper. The real terror was the MB/Tackle Wardancer. I may, at some point, face a team that has a threat like this, but I can't see Sure-Hands as the game-decider. And in the mean-time, Block or Dodge will be infinitely more useful.
2) Sneaky Git on a snot?? You must have hit the vodka too hard. You're honestly telling me that 1 snot with Sneaky Git is better than 2 unskilled snots? I think if you consider the math there for about 2 seconds you'll see that this pretty ridiculous. Sneaky Git kicks in on 1,1; 2,2; and sometimes 3,3–– Let's say 2.5 rolls out of 36. I would have to foul ~30 times in a game with •that particular snotling• before I accrued any advantage over simply having another snot. And that snotling will not always be the one in position, nor will he always be still conscious. Even if you do something outrageous like •triple, quadruple or quintuple• the game-impact, to account for occasional and unspecified 'situation advantages' (like the ability to pull the odd unassisted foul when you otherwise wouldn't), it still is pathetically dismal. Sure Feet looks like a much safer bet.
3) Skeptical about excessive BT. Looks like another way to roll more dice, waste more RRs, and suffer more Turnovers.
4) I see your point, but I think you need to be judicious about when to use it. Other than DT/SS, POMB is the only mainstream combo that Ogres can pull off. Ever seen a Black Orc take Break Tackle and Guard as their first skill? I thought not. But PO/MB? We can do that do!
Posted by cameronhawkins on 2013-05-07 12:50:56
@nufflehatesme
I think you math is a bit off–– 6 Ogres is 840k, which pushes you into the dark, dark 1300 range... and beware, here be the claw/guard/CDs...
I rolled my first snotling double... unfortunately as his second skill after DT. I wanted a Dirty Player, but I took Leader as I figured other skills on DP just mean you get 20K more loss when he's ejected. Problem is, now a have to worry about protecting him. I'm not sure there was any good solution, honestly.
Posted by cameronhawkins on 2013-05-07 12:59:59
@the.tok
As you say, I think most of what you say centers around a Ranked-oriented playstyle. Blackbox is a bit different.
For certain teams, TV management is more critical to success than virtually any other factor.
I agree with you on one big thing, though–– It may be that Ogres are simply inviable above 1100k.
Perhaps one strategy would be to keep them at ~rookie TV until you have 3-4 Ogre doubles, then hire 2 more Ogres, an Apo, a RR and a few snots, to shoot past the 1300-1500 range.
As you say, I think most of what you say centers around a Ranked-oriented playstyle. Blackbox is a bit different.
For certain teams, TV management is more critical to success than virtually any other factor.
I agree with you on one big thing, though–– It may be that Ogres are simply inviable above 1100k.
Perhaps one strategy would be to keep them at ~rookie TV until you have 3-4 Ogre doubles, then hire 2 more Ogres, an Apo, a RR and a few snots, to shoot past the 1300-1500 range.
Posted by Nelphine on 2013-05-07 16:42:37
first off:
the scariest orc team I ever faced with my Nurgle had 9 guard, and 2 mb. They completely shut my nurgle down, to something like 14 blocks in the whole game. Yes, I FULLY believe in guard before pomb with certain players, and ogres are hugely included in this group. pomb might be mainstream; that doesn't make it good for everyone.
second off:
sure hands means he's picking up the ball 75% of the time, which means even if he gets downed, he can still pick the ball up; and it doesn't take a re-roll!! This can not be overstated in terms of utility. Note: I did take block first, but block doesn't make nearly the difference to a ball carrier than it does to a random ogre. The best use of block is to prevent you from wasting re-rolls on ogres who just want to hit things; and a ball carrier doesn't randomly hit things, and you want an ogre ball carrier. In future I would take sure hands first. Defensively? It's ok, but too many times your opponent can get a 2die block anyway, so it's simply not that good. Blodge? Ok sure that would be better than Sure Hands, but that's two skills, and you still require balling re-rolls. There are too many boneheads to dedicate all your re-rolls to ball pick-ups. The strip ball is purely icing on the cake (although I realize I didn't emphasize that properly on my last post.)
Sneaky Git:
The math says: Sneaky Git is horribly worse than an extra snotling. My firm belief is that (without +MA or +Agi), sneaky git is at LEAST as useful as any other agi skill on a snotling. Which just means all the other skills are equally terrible NOT that sneaky git is suddenly good. I end up taking sneaky git because I refuse to buy snotlings, so an extra snotling isn't actually an option for me, so this allows me a (tiny) bit more leeway when fouling. If you do spend money on snots, I would retire ANY snot who does not roll +MA or +Agi (and possibly even +MA ones) including doubles and +S. Ah not true. Leader is awesome for a snotling, beause it's a 50k re-roll instead of 70k. I've also tried to use Hail Mary Pass, but have never actually successfully used the skill, although that's been 9 failed pick ups, so in theory, it might be better than I think it is.
Finally: about break tackle. On any OTHER team, you have at least 6 or 7 people who can blitz in a pinch. On an ogre team, you have ONLY 6 people who can realistically ever blitz anything. And some of them will bonehead the turn before and be WAY out of position. Break Tackle means when everything goes wrong (spelled b-o-n-e-h-e-a-d), you still have a good shot at having a possible blitz wherever you need it. I know I've not been using it, but it has been immensely useful on my snotling team, and doubles are still more important.
the scariest orc team I ever faced with my Nurgle had 9 guard, and 2 mb. They completely shut my nurgle down, to something like 14 blocks in the whole game. Yes, I FULLY believe in guard before pomb with certain players, and ogres are hugely included in this group. pomb might be mainstream; that doesn't make it good for everyone.
second off:
sure hands means he's picking up the ball 75% of the time, which means even if he gets downed, he can still pick the ball up; and it doesn't take a re-roll!! This can not be overstated in terms of utility. Note: I did take block first, but block doesn't make nearly the difference to a ball carrier than it does to a random ogre. The best use of block is to prevent you from wasting re-rolls on ogres who just want to hit things; and a ball carrier doesn't randomly hit things, and you want an ogre ball carrier. In future I would take sure hands first. Defensively? It's ok, but too many times your opponent can get a 2die block anyway, so it's simply not that good. Blodge? Ok sure that would be better than Sure Hands, but that's two skills, and you still require balling re-rolls. There are too many boneheads to dedicate all your re-rolls to ball pick-ups. The strip ball is purely icing on the cake (although I realize I didn't emphasize that properly on my last post.)
Sneaky Git:
The math says: Sneaky Git is horribly worse than an extra snotling. My firm belief is that (without +MA or +Agi), sneaky git is at LEAST as useful as any other agi skill on a snotling. Which just means all the other skills are equally terrible NOT that sneaky git is suddenly good. I end up taking sneaky git because I refuse to buy snotlings, so an extra snotling isn't actually an option for me, so this allows me a (tiny) bit more leeway when fouling. If you do spend money on snots, I would retire ANY snot who does not roll +MA or +Agi (and possibly even +MA ones) including doubles and +S. Ah not true. Leader is awesome for a snotling, beause it's a 50k re-roll instead of 70k. I've also tried to use Hail Mary Pass, but have never actually successfully used the skill, although that's been 9 failed pick ups, so in theory, it might be better than I think it is.
Finally: about break tackle. On any OTHER team, you have at least 6 or 7 people who can blitz in a pinch. On an ogre team, you have ONLY 6 people who can realistically ever blitz anything. And some of them will bonehead the turn before and be WAY out of position. Break Tackle means when everything goes wrong (spelled b-o-n-e-h-e-a-d), you still have a good shot at having a possible blitz wherever you need it. I know I've not been using it, but it has been immensely useful on my snotling team, and doubles are still more important.
Posted by hale on 2013-05-08 13:51:11
everyone has a different idea how to play ogres, basically you need to find the style that is right for how you play and it'd be hard for anyone else to tell you what that style is. also worth noting is that ogre variance is extreme compared to all other races so looking at your win/loss record with anything less than 50 games is probably pretty meaningless