60 coaches online • Server time: 22:08
* * * Did you know? The best interceptor is Leena with 22 interceptions.
Recent Forum Topics  Secret League Americ... | Gnomes are trash | Roster Tiers |
2013-04-20 23:53:01
30 votes, rating 4
30 votes, rating 4
USA USA!?
So in the land of patriotism, capturing or killing two radical murderers can induce a feeling of unity? While having several ongoing wars where innocent people are killed every day? I must admit.. I'm kinda disgusted.
Feel free to lecture me.
Feel free to lecture me.
Comments
Posted by octopec on 2013-04-21 00:21:18
Idiots only understand symbolism.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 00:29:02
Yer not alone, man. SMH @ people's screwy sense of priorities.
I think to some extent it's a human thing, that "immediacy" effect. People can put themselves in the shoes of runners or bystanders at the Boston Marathon more easily than those of people half a world away against whom we're waging some poorly-understood "war" with no clear "enemy" to be had. We get it right away (most of us) when some crazy shoots up a school and kills 20 people, but when we run a credible risk of killing billions (ourselves included, most likely) with oceanic anoxia and runaway climate change, it seems so abstract....
I think to some extent it's a human thing, that "immediacy" effect. People can put themselves in the shoes of runners or bystanders at the Boston Marathon more easily than those of people half a world away against whom we're waging some poorly-understood "war" with no clear "enemy" to be had. We get it right away (most of us) when some crazy shoots up a school and kills 20 people, but when we run a credible risk of killing billions (ourselves included, most likely) with oceanic anoxia and runaway climate change, it seems so abstract....
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 00:32:31
Not that different from the gambler's problem, the intermittent reward principle, and even the tricks that our eyes play on us, like our logarithmic sense of brightness: if we saw the relative brightness of the moon and stars as they really are in terms of how much of their light actually hits our eyes, for example, we wouldn't even notice the stars. But our vision wouldn't be very useful. Similarly with other things: the human brain isn't good at comprehending 10^20, so so often it substitutes the shorthand of "a lot more", and it does so unevenly, such that one large number may seem bigger than another, much larger number which has had to be scaled down to make sense.
Posted by oryx on 2013-04-21 00:38:13
What Jackass Rampant said.
Yet, this has been going on for years. Remember 9/11...?
I was in a high school english class that day, and got in SO many arguments about whether or not it was such a terrible thing...
Yet, this has been going on for years. Remember 9/11...?
I was in a high school english class that day, and got in SO many arguments about whether or not it was such a terrible thing...
Posted by truckerpunk on 2013-04-21 00:49:30
@JackassRampant.. the moon yes, not the stars as they expel photons which are no-mass substances and are bound to reach the earth without interference (in vacuum of space)... But you might be right, it must be a example of current and close event hit a bit harder than others...if you are narrow-minded. (flame war = on).
Posted by Eusebio on 2013-04-21 00:56:21
you are definitely not alone ;)
in 15 years from "land of opportunities" to "lowl"... sad thing is this "lowl" rules the world ;)
in 15 years from "land of opportunities" to "lowl"... sad thing is this "lowl" rules the world ;)
Posted by gregory_n_white on 2013-04-21 01:08:26
Im not American (Im australian) but one of the things that shocked me was one of the US newsreaders pride at declaring the first guy (who eventually died) was taken into custody and no memorandum of rights read out as he was a terrorist ..... the glee with which basic rights are discarded.
Posted by pythrr on 2013-04-21 01:20:41
Gregory... "basic rights"
no. these may be "basic rights in the USA" (i.e.: Miranda, although they do not apply to "enemy combatants", apparently), but not in 90% of the world.
do you not get the irony of your comment?
no. these may be "basic rights in the USA" (i.e.: Miranda, although they do not apply to "enemy combatants", apparently), but not in 90% of the world.
do you not get the irony of your comment?
Posted by Jeffro on 2013-04-21 01:27:10
I'm with you. Not that it isn't a tragedy what happened... but what about the 4 year old boy that got killed by a stray bullet while in his own home which happened to be next door during a drive-by fire-fight?!... Where's the all out man hunt for those guys?!?
Our sense of justice is misguided and misappropriated. You get no lecture from me.
Our sense of justice is misguided and misappropriated. You get no lecture from me.
Posted by Qaz on 2013-04-21 01:31:14
Manny Tweets out there about terrorists from the Czech Republic...
I am not sure how you get Chechnya mixed up with the Czech Republic.
besides had they not lived in the US for manny years?
I am not sure how you get Chechnya mixed up with the Czech Republic.
besides had they not lived in the US for manny years?
Posted by truckerpunk on 2013-04-21 01:41:45
It's on the other side of "the pond" and starts with a "C"... What more do you need, Qaz? =)
Posted by pythrr on 2013-04-21 01:43:37
sigh....
let's judge an entire country by the tweets of a few idiots.
because that is doing exactly what you are accusing them of doing...
let's judge an entire country by the tweets of a few idiots.
because that is doing exactly what you are accusing them of doing...
Posted by Qaz on 2013-04-21 01:49:08
pythrr where exactly did you see me acuse a whole country?
As far as I can see I was talking about the "Manny Tweets" not the ones that did not tweed.
But if you are telling the rest of us what we are "actually saying" you can accuse us of what ever suits you. Kinda convenient...
As far as I can see I was talking about the "Manny Tweets" not the ones that did not tweed.
But if you are telling the rest of us what we are "actually saying" you can accuse us of what ever suits you. Kinda convenient...
Posted by pythrr on 2013-04-21 01:52:07
i was addressing hypocrisy of the entire thread, Qaz, not just you. Sensitive much?
Posted by truckerpunk on 2013-04-21 02:25:01
Hypocrisy: The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess.
And how exactly is it hypocrisy to ask a question, and state ones own feelings of the matter? Of cause this could imply that you mean I don't have the feelings about the matter that I express, which you have no chance of knowing, what so ever.
And to the comment to Qaz' earlier post.. the smily-thingy was there to imply it was a joke.. but I guess you missed that, pythrr....
And how exactly is it hypocrisy to ask a question, and state ones own feelings of the matter? Of cause this could imply that you mean I don't have the feelings about the matter that I express, which you have no chance of knowing, what so ever.
And to the comment to Qaz' earlier post.. the smily-thingy was there to imply it was a joke.. but I guess you missed that, pythrr....
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 03:06:01
1) Qaz, we're not all like that. Lots of us can find both Chechnya and the Czech Republic on a map.
2) That said, I'm consistently amazed how well-informed Europeans are. Not that Americans are all stupid (though our anti-intellectuals love to run riot and make us sound stupid to foreigners), but that Europeans specifically have a better basis for following current events than people from other parts of the world. When I was a street canvasser, I had separate pitches for people from different continents. I learned to talk about other African countries when talking to Africans, to talk about Somalia with Australians, Syria with Middle Easterners, and just to assume that any European had a pretty good grasp of whatever issue I was using on Americans, pretty much the pitch I used on American professors, foreign studies students, and lawyers.
3) @ Pythrr, I hold us to our standard, not somebody else's. We're failing it with this poor kid, even though he can go to Hell for what I care. My concern isn't for him, but for us. It's not even like they're denying him a lawyer: they're just letting us all in on this little "joke" they're pulling on him 'cause he's a frightened, wounded 19-year-old kid and the whole country is (justifiably) mad at him. After all, the right to speak includes the right not to speak, and he still has the right to an attorney. And they're dragging our justice system through the mud to do it. Not like they don't have enough evidence....
2) That said, I'm consistently amazed how well-informed Europeans are. Not that Americans are all stupid (though our anti-intellectuals love to run riot and make us sound stupid to foreigners), but that Europeans specifically have a better basis for following current events than people from other parts of the world. When I was a street canvasser, I had separate pitches for people from different continents. I learned to talk about other African countries when talking to Africans, to talk about Somalia with Australians, Syria with Middle Easterners, and just to assume that any European had a pretty good grasp of whatever issue I was using on Americans, pretty much the pitch I used on American professors, foreign studies students, and lawyers.
3) @ Pythrr, I hold us to our standard, not somebody else's. We're failing it with this poor kid, even though he can go to Hell for what I care. My concern isn't for him, but for us. It's not even like they're denying him a lawyer: they're just letting us all in on this little "joke" they're pulling on him 'cause he's a frightened, wounded 19-year-old kid and the whole country is (justifiably) mad at him. After all, the right to speak includes the right not to speak, and he still has the right to an attorney. And they're dragging our justice system through the mud to do it. Not like they don't have enough evidence....
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 03:10:00
In fact, that's what really burns my bum. Every time somebody does something horrible and over the top, the first thing that happens is this outcry to scrap all that is good in our country, to get in the dirt with the bad guys and out-unfair them. It's absolutely disgusting and un-American (anti-American, even), and has no place in civilized society. Savagery is a strategy for the weak in a lawless world, and I fail to see how our justice system meets either criterion.
Posted by fidius on 2013-04-21 03:26:15
Societies which protect citizens from natural consequences eventually raise up generations of children unable to discern good from evil. QED
Posted by BillBrasky on 2013-04-21 03:34:39
I understand the outrage.
I understand the need.
We (the West) are at war with a religion. I know it's not politically correct to say that. But it is true. An entire people dedicated to the radical worship of Islam (not all Muslims) have declared war on our way of life.
When it is identified that people with that set of values attacks our people, that is an act of war, and the perpetrators should be treated as enemy combatants. It doesn't matter if they are American citizens, Saudi citizens, or Chechnya citizens.
I understand the fear of people losing their Bill of Rights protections. If for example, there is no evidence that proves these attackers were waging Jihad, then of course they should be afforded every protection the Bill of Rights affords.
As for the original post. It is no big surprise to me that the majority of uniformed citizens in the US are behaving emotionally. Not everyone is educated & informed. Quite the opposite. I believe the majority of US citizens are content to be happily ignorant of world affairs. Give them Jersey Shore & Dancing With the Stars, and they can be blissfully unaware. Then when reality hits home, it's not unusual how they respond. Having a traumatic experience behind us, I feel no shame in feeling we are one nation & stronger for the trial we have just overcome.
Here's the other easy question truckerpunk: If your wife or mother was maimed or killed, would you feel any joy knowing the perpetrators had been captured or killed? I think if you answer in the negative, you have transcended humanity.
I understand the need.
We (the West) are at war with a religion. I know it's not politically correct to say that. But it is true. An entire people dedicated to the radical worship of Islam (not all Muslims) have declared war on our way of life.
When it is identified that people with that set of values attacks our people, that is an act of war, and the perpetrators should be treated as enemy combatants. It doesn't matter if they are American citizens, Saudi citizens, or Chechnya citizens.
I understand the fear of people losing their Bill of Rights protections. If for example, there is no evidence that proves these attackers were waging Jihad, then of course they should be afforded every protection the Bill of Rights affords.
As for the original post. It is no big surprise to me that the majority of uniformed citizens in the US are behaving emotionally. Not everyone is educated & informed. Quite the opposite. I believe the majority of US citizens are content to be happily ignorant of world affairs. Give them Jersey Shore & Dancing With the Stars, and they can be blissfully unaware. Then when reality hits home, it's not unusual how they respond. Having a traumatic experience behind us, I feel no shame in feeling we are one nation & stronger for the trial we have just overcome.
Here's the other easy question truckerpunk: If your wife or mother was maimed or killed, would you feel any joy knowing the perpetrators had been captured or killed? I think if you answer in the negative, you have transcended humanity.
Posted by keggiemckill on 2013-04-21 04:52:17
Towards the original post; Trucker, are you honestly insinuating that all the innocent deaths in war zones should be treated emotionally equal to what happened in Boston, by the American people? When something happens in your back yard everyone will react more emotionally than if it were not. Because you have talked with an American or watched an American Television program shouldn't mean you have a special insight to how these people should conduct themselves.
It seems people from the Netherlands are always the first to get on the "bash Americans when they act Patriotic" bus. You also shouldn't comment while giving opinion about innocent people dying when your country sits back and enjoys that television program from your safe home. Your town didn't get bombed, how could you possible comment on how people should react after theirs were?
It seems people from the Netherlands are always the first to get on the "bash Americans when they act Patriotic" bus. You also shouldn't comment while giving opinion about innocent people dying when your country sits back and enjoys that television program from your safe home. Your town didn't get bombed, how could you possible comment on how people should react after theirs were?
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-04-21 05:03:47
What gets me is that patriotism seems to be a one way street.
I mean... 5000 soldiers dead, 10s of 1000s of veterans maimed, 100s of 1000s with PTSD, 100s of 1000s of Iraqi's dead, Iraq a mess, trillions of dollars spent, and where's the outrage? Where's the outrage against Bush for his ineptitude? Where's the outrage against Cheney and his cronies for profiteering from Iraq? A war fought on lies and misinformation.
If you're American and a Republican politician, you can do untold damage to your country, and it's acceptable. No prosecutions from torture etc.
Honestly, Al Qaeda / Osama Bin Laden could not have wished for a more arrogant response to 9/11. That most Americans seem clueless to this fact, well, it just speaks volumes.
Boston won't be the last time, sadly.
I mean... 5000 soldiers dead, 10s of 1000s of veterans maimed, 100s of 1000s with PTSD, 100s of 1000s of Iraqi's dead, Iraq a mess, trillions of dollars spent, and where's the outrage? Where's the outrage against Bush for his ineptitude? Where's the outrage against Cheney and his cronies for profiteering from Iraq? A war fought on lies and misinformation.
If you're American and a Republican politician, you can do untold damage to your country, and it's acceptable. No prosecutions from torture etc.
Honestly, Al Qaeda / Osama Bin Laden could not have wished for a more arrogant response to 9/11. That most Americans seem clueless to this fact, well, it just speaks volumes.
Boston won't be the last time, sadly.
Posted by Atterbyte on 2013-04-21 05:08:02
When there is a lack of consistency, extremes begin to look self-indulgent. It is disgusting when the right principles are being praised for the wrong reasons. It invalidates the entire point in my eyes.
Posted by Arktoris on 2013-04-21 06:12:26
let the people of those countries feel empathy for their losses. I'll worry about my countrymen.
As the saying goes, "charity begins at home."
As the saying goes, "charity begins at home."
Posted by PsyPhiGrad on 2013-04-21 06:53:44
I'm more worried about the corporate Jihad that leads to disasters like the explosion and many deaths at the fertilizer plant.
But some lives are more valuable than others...
But some lives are more valuable than others...
Posted by licker on 2013-04-21 07:01:41
Blind patriotism is indeed a dangerous thing and after a tragedy broadcast across the counter live, many will demand solace, and take it wherever they can find it.
There is no real solace to be taken though, nor is there solace to be taken from the wars ongoing and already fought against 'terrorism'.
None the less, if anyone believes there is, and was, no outrage against Bush and his 'cronies' then one has not been paying quite enough attention. And yet, what would you ask happen to those men and women? What would you ask happen to Obama for continuing those wars and same practices?
No, it's easy to find outrage in just about anything, and it's easy to say 'I know better.' And maybe some do, but what good does it do? What action will you take? What changes will you make?
There is still much beauty and love in the world, but we as a species seem inexorably drawn to horror and injustice. We create systems which simply perpetuate divides between not just countries or religions, but among different groups of people. So what is the solution? I have no freaking idea. If anyone does, please share it.
There is no real solace to be taken though, nor is there solace to be taken from the wars ongoing and already fought against 'terrorism'.
None the less, if anyone believes there is, and was, no outrage against Bush and his 'cronies' then one has not been paying quite enough attention. And yet, what would you ask happen to those men and women? What would you ask happen to Obama for continuing those wars and same practices?
No, it's easy to find outrage in just about anything, and it's easy to say 'I know better.' And maybe some do, but what good does it do? What action will you take? What changes will you make?
There is still much beauty and love in the world, but we as a species seem inexorably drawn to horror and injustice. We create systems which simply perpetuate divides between not just countries or religions, but among different groups of people. So what is the solution? I have no freaking idea. If anyone does, please share it.
Posted by Beerox on 2013-04-21 07:51:04
Sorry you are 'disgusted'. Have a frickin alka seltzer or something.
Study up on human nature while you're at it.
Study up on human nature while you're at it.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2013-04-21 08:55:38
I would like to join in, but I can't be bothered to actually say anything useful, it's not like people read this anyway. So all I will say is this: poop.
Posted by Calcium on 2013-04-21 11:57:38
Oh dear.....
Posted by Reisender on 2013-04-21 12:21:23
@BillBrasky: "I understand the fear of people losing their Bill of Rights protections. If for example, there is no evidence that proves these attackers were waging Jihad, then of course they should be afforded every protection the Bill of Rights affords."
Thing is, even if one would agree with you that jihadist should lose all those rights, just to establish that they are terrorists in that sense would include giving them a lawyer. You realize they had some innocent people in Guantanamo and other "inofficial" prisons? (And with they i don´t mean just the USA - at least those 2 publicly known in my country (Germany) claimed they were questioned by German intelligence too).
Now if Khalid el Masri (German citizen) would have had a lawyer, he may have been able to tell his captors that he was the wrong guy unfortunate enough to carry the same name as the terrorist they were looking for.
If Murat Kurnaz (Turkish citizen, born in Germany, silly German citizenship laws...) would have had a lawyer, he may have been able to proof he was sold by corrupt afghan police to the US (1000$/each terrorist - a lot of money there) while travelling in Aghanistan. Eventually they let him go (after keeping him for some more years AFTER knowing he was innocent).
As someone said, IF that guy is guilty (and at this point it seems obviously very likely) he will be sentenced also with a lawyer.
Thing is, even if one would agree with you that jihadist should lose all those rights, just to establish that they are terrorists in that sense would include giving them a lawyer. You realize they had some innocent people in Guantanamo and other "inofficial" prisons? (And with they i don´t mean just the USA - at least those 2 publicly known in my country (Germany) claimed they were questioned by German intelligence too).
Now if Khalid el Masri (German citizen) would have had a lawyer, he may have been able to tell his captors that he was the wrong guy unfortunate enough to carry the same name as the terrorist they were looking for.
If Murat Kurnaz (Turkish citizen, born in Germany, silly German citizenship laws...) would have had a lawyer, he may have been able to proof he was sold by corrupt afghan police to the US (1000$/each terrorist - a lot of money there) while travelling in Aghanistan. Eventually they let him go (after keeping him for some more years AFTER knowing he was innocent).
As someone said, IF that guy is guilty (and at this point it seems obviously very likely) he will be sentenced also with a lawyer.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2013-04-21 13:46:31
Just for clarification: They don't lose all of their rights by being "enemy combatants." They lose the US Bill of Rights protection. The Bill of Rights says everyone in America:
1) Has freedom of religion, speech, free press, and assembly
2) The right to bear arms
3) No Soldier shall be quartered in times of peace in any home
4) No unreasonable search or seizure will be permitted
5) No one shall be forced to bear witness against their own self; They have a right to grand jury; They shall not be deprived of the due process of law; they shall not be tried for the same crime more than once
6) They have a right to a lawyer at every important stage in a prosecution & have a right to a speedy & fair trial
7) There is a right to have a jury
8) There shall be no excessive bail or fines & no cruel or unusual punishment
9) No Fundamental rights shall be violated
10) Powers not given to the Federal Government belong to the States
So...
What are applicable here:
4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th most likely
Geneva convention & other international treaties still apply.
1) Has freedom of religion, speech, free press, and assembly
2) The right to bear arms
3) No Soldier shall be quartered in times of peace in any home
4) No unreasonable search or seizure will be permitted
5) No one shall be forced to bear witness against their own self; They have a right to grand jury; They shall not be deprived of the due process of law; they shall not be tried for the same crime more than once
6) They have a right to a lawyer at every important stage in a prosecution & have a right to a speedy & fair trial
7) There is a right to have a jury
8) There shall be no excessive bail or fines & no cruel or unusual punishment
9) No Fundamental rights shall be violated
10) Powers not given to the Federal Government belong to the States
So...
What are applicable here:
4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th most likely
Geneva convention & other international treaties still apply.
Posted by koadah on 2013-04-21 14:57:37
Sorry folks. I haven't been keeping up with events.
Are we allowed to waterboard the guy or not?
Are we allowed to waterboard the guy or not?
Posted by licker on 2013-04-21 16:21:07
I don't know about 'we' kodah, but the Obama administration is fine if interrogators waterboard him.
Posted by birdbanger on 2013-04-21 17:17:37
@BillBrasky
"I understand the outrage.
I understand the need.
We (the West) are at war with a religion. I know it's not politically correct to say that. But it is true. An entire people dedicated to the radical worship of Islam (not all Muslims) have declared war on our way of life. "
This is true. Just read the history. The war has been going on for over 1000 years. Since islam started in 600 ad. It is not just USA vs. Islam. It is Islam vs. all the "infidels". These same kind of jihad bomb attacks happen all the time in places like Thailand, India, Nigeria, Iraq, Sudan. Thanks to open borders, it is now happening on our western backyards also.
@truckerpunk
"While having several ongoing wars where innocent people are killed every day?"
The worst war at the moment is in Syria. It is those same jihad crazies fighting against Assad. Same ideology that blew up civilians in Boston. The thing that disgusts me is that Obama supports those religious fanatics.
I myself have hard time understanding the western worlds self hatred.
Sure nasty things happen in war, but at least they got Saddam. Bad thing is that it seems that only Saddam was able to keep Iraq in control.
"I understand the outrage.
I understand the need.
We (the West) are at war with a religion. I know it's not politically correct to say that. But it is true. An entire people dedicated to the radical worship of Islam (not all Muslims) have declared war on our way of life. "
This is true. Just read the history. The war has been going on for over 1000 years. Since islam started in 600 ad. It is not just USA vs. Islam. It is Islam vs. all the "infidels". These same kind of jihad bomb attacks happen all the time in places like Thailand, India, Nigeria, Iraq, Sudan. Thanks to open borders, it is now happening on our western backyards also.
@truckerpunk
"While having several ongoing wars where innocent people are killed every day?"
The worst war at the moment is in Syria. It is those same jihad crazies fighting against Assad. Same ideology that blew up civilians in Boston. The thing that disgusts me is that Obama supports those religious fanatics.
I myself have hard time understanding the western worlds self hatred.
Sure nasty things happen in war, but at least they got Saddam. Bad thing is that it seems that only Saddam was able to keep Iraq in control.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 18:37:47
I only got as far as Brasky's post 'cause it pissed me off and I have to respond.
@ Bill: if your point is that proselytizing religions (all of which maintain that others should practice as they do) naturally conflict with other faiths, okay, I can accept that. We certainly have our struggles in the United States, vis-a-vis Christianity and, well, non-Christianity.
But I'd submit this same example (the United States) as one to say that the real problem is fundamentally geopolitical, and religious conflict only throws fuel on the basic fire. I'd imagine that if we had a nice long talk on a variety of subjects, our points of agreement would mostly boil down to being Americans, gamers and BB coaches, and being or having been Drew Brees fans, and beyond that we might be tempted to come to blows. Yet, we don't and wouldn't: to fight (physically) about religion or politics is unbecoming of a developed nation.
However, people on the other side of the world have good reason to be suspicious of big, wealthy, faraway countries meddling in their regional affairs (aren't you? And we don't even have to think about it...). Add to that a vast economic disparity and some pretty major nose-thumbing from the West (wherever you come down on Israel, the Palestinians got a screwing or Biblical proportions), and it's easy to see where the conflict comes from. Religion is just a tool to "tie back together" (re-lig) the populace, to motivate people to do whatever they were tempted to do anyway.
@ Bill: if your point is that proselytizing religions (all of which maintain that others should practice as they do) naturally conflict with other faiths, okay, I can accept that. We certainly have our struggles in the United States, vis-a-vis Christianity and, well, non-Christianity.
But I'd submit this same example (the United States) as one to say that the real problem is fundamentally geopolitical, and religious conflict only throws fuel on the basic fire. I'd imagine that if we had a nice long talk on a variety of subjects, our points of agreement would mostly boil down to being Americans, gamers and BB coaches, and being or having been Drew Brees fans, and beyond that we might be tempted to come to blows. Yet, we don't and wouldn't: to fight (physically) about religion or politics is unbecoming of a developed nation.
However, people on the other side of the world have good reason to be suspicious of big, wealthy, faraway countries meddling in their regional affairs (aren't you? And we don't even have to think about it...). Add to that a vast economic disparity and some pretty major nose-thumbing from the West (wherever you come down on Israel, the Palestinians got a screwing or Biblical proportions), and it's easy to see where the conflict comes from. Religion is just a tool to "tie back together" (re-lig) the populace, to motivate people to do whatever they were tempted to do anyway.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 18:40:22
Okay, so @ Bill's other bit, on enemy combatants and the Bill of Rights:
This is an interesting paradox. The right to due process is contained within the Bill of Rights, and that right is exactly what the concept of declaring people "enemy combatants" violates.
Personally, I think we're much better off sticking to our principles, and calling these people "accused criminals," and then trying them so we can call them just "criminals." We don't need to glorify them.
This is an interesting paradox. The right to due process is contained within the Bill of Rights, and that right is exactly what the concept of declaring people "enemy combatants" violates.
Personally, I think we're much better off sticking to our principles, and calling these people "accused criminals," and then trying them so we can call them just "criminals." We don't need to glorify them.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 18:48:09
Combatants captured on the battlefield engaged in hostilities with the US Military are one thing. That's what the term "enemy combatant" means. That can only apply domestically in the case of an invasion or a full-scale insurrection. This was a criminal matter, and should be treated as such.
In the case of Guantanamo, the problem isn't picking them up. It's denying them due process. We are bound by the Constitution at home and the Geneva Convention abroad, and the Bush-Admin "nor-fish-nor-foul" games (they did this with the VP's office too to dodge accountability, executive or legislative depending on who was asking, but that's the cover-up and this is the crime, and in this case it IS the crime that matters) were really the worst part of his legacy. That and six figures of dead innocent civilians, and a deliberate effort to break our military (and a successful effort to break our regulatory system, leading to the Katrina aftermath and the BP disaster, among many smaller tragedies).
In the case of Guantanamo, the problem isn't picking them up. It's denying them due process. We are bound by the Constitution at home and the Geneva Convention abroad, and the Bush-Admin "nor-fish-nor-foul" games (they did this with the VP's office too to dodge accountability, executive or legislative depending on who was asking, but that's the cover-up and this is the crime, and in this case it IS the crime that matters) were really the worst part of his legacy. That and six figures of dead innocent civilians, and a deliberate effort to break our military (and a successful effort to break our regulatory system, leading to the Katrina aftermath and the BP disaster, among many smaller tragedies).
Posted by PainState on 2013-04-21 18:48:23
I still want to know what happened to that film maker who enflamed the passsions of the arab world and blew up Bengazhi.
He is still stuck in some dark hole in the federal system. Did he get issued Miranda rights after they raided his house and carried him off in shackles?
Obama does not seem to have issues with labeling citizens enemies of the State and sending them off to some undisclosed prison.
He is still stuck in some dark hole in the federal system. Did he get issued Miranda rights after they raided his house and carried him off in shackles?
Obama does not seem to have issues with labeling citizens enemies of the State and sending them off to some undisclosed prison.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 18:51:16
Oh, yeah. And the housing bubble and the Great Recession, and the failure to continue to expand our infrastructure (nationwide broadband, high speed rail, universal healthcare: we got Iraq instead).
George W. Bush destroyed my country. Burn in Hell, W!
Sorry for epic rant.
George W. Bush destroyed my country. Burn in Hell, W!
Sorry for epic rant.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 18:53:37
Once stuff like this gets started, it's hard to stop. Obama, I must say, has taken up Bush's mantle on this issue, though at least he's not leading us into unnecessary wars or trying to break our government (not that he can stop it... see Tea Party Downgrade). It really is by far his worst attribute, IMO.
Posted by birdbanger on 2013-04-21 18:56:27
@JackassRampant
"Religion is just a tool to "tie back together" (re-lig) the populace, to motivate people to do whatever they were tempted to do anyway."
I can understand that the Cheznians fight against Russia if they want an independent nation. (We fins fought also against soviets in 2nd world war.) But when they target people and kids on Boston marathon it is no more just an geopolitical thing. It is jihad against infidels.
"Religion is just a tool to "tie back together" (re-lig) the populace, to motivate people to do whatever they were tempted to do anyway."
I can understand that the Cheznians fight against Russia if they want an independent nation. (We fins fought also against soviets in 2nd world war.) But when they target people and kids on Boston marathon it is no more just an geopolitical thing. It is jihad against infidels.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 19:20:18
I see this bombing as more like a public shooting. Really unhappy guy picks a cause, goes out to die for it, takes his brother with him. The specific cause isn't really that important: having one may be a catalyst, but if you're sick enough to do this kind of thing and you don't have some cause that naturally comes to you, you'll invent one.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-21 19:24:15
Violence like this comes in all colors, sadly. That it has an international reference point doesn't really make it an act of international terrorism any more than Jared Lee Loughner was acting on behalf of the GOP. It's one-man (okay, two in this case) domestic terrorism, and it's just a crime. A very serious one, yes, not an international incident.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2013-04-21 19:55:32
JAR:
Dude...
Get on some medicine.
You are out of touch of the world I live in.
George Bush made bad calls. But he did what he thought was best with the information he had.
I don't see how it's hard to distinguish between acts of war, and crime.
If it is a crime, people should be treated as such & given all of their Bill of Rights protections.
But you are making a generalization based on your own judgement.
Maybe you have the evidence. I don't. But I think the authorities that did the investigation probably uncovered certain facts that led them to believe those jack asses that killed people & maimed people were waging Jihad. And, if so, they need to be treated as enemy combatants.
Dude...
Get on some medicine.
You are out of touch of the world I live in.
George Bush made bad calls. But he did what he thought was best with the information he had.
I don't see how it's hard to distinguish between acts of war, and crime.
If it is a crime, people should be treated as such & given all of their Bill of Rights protections.
But you are making a generalization based on your own judgement.
Maybe you have the evidence. I don't. But I think the authorities that did the investigation probably uncovered certain facts that led them to believe those jack asses that killed people & maimed people were waging Jihad. And, if so, they need to be treated as enemy combatants.
Posted by Eusebio on 2013-04-21 21:35:25
@JackassRampant
You are giving me hope. Thanks for that and spread the word... medicine should be taken by others, the ones who think they are on the contrary side, but in fact not much different to those Jihad-Clawpombers...
You are giving me hope. Thanks for that and spread the word... medicine should be taken by others, the ones who think they are on the contrary side, but in fact not much different to those Jihad-Clawpombers...
Posted by PsyPhiGrad on 2013-04-21 22:57:19
Be very careful of who your government (or anyone else) convinces you to hate, you might end up facing war crimes charges in your future:
http://feeds.boingboing.net/~r/boingboing/iBag/~3/diuk1Efk5Ro/story01.htm
http://feeds.boingboing.net/~r/boingboing/iBag/~3/diuk1Efk5Ro/story01.htm
Posted by pythrr on 2013-04-22 00:57:34
PPG - "corporate Jihad" - you have no idea what jihad actually means, do you?
Posted by B_SIDE on 2013-04-22 07:52:01
OP:
I agree.
I agree.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-22 14:26:34
@ Bill: Excerpt from http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/04/21/boston_marathon_bombing_tsarnaev_brothers_planned_additional_attacks.html
“All of the information I have is that they acted alone, these two individuals, the brothers,” Boston Mayor Thomas Menino told ABC. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel told reporters that he hasn’t seen any intelligence linking the brothers to any terrorist organization, although he emphasized it is still early in the investigation, reports CNN.
Lone gunmen. No different from Ted Kaczynski or Harris and Klebold. Criminals, with or without political motivation, and subject to criminal law.
Re: Bush, the regulatory failures were deliberate. Do you remember all the crazy stuff that went on with the MME and other regulatory groups in the 2000s? It's cause he went out of his way to appoint unqualified administrators to those positions. Yes, you can hold the Bush Admin responsible for the Macondo spill, directly. They also cooked up the intel to go to war in Iraq, and continuing to deny it so long after all the facts have come out is, well, kinda sad.
“All of the information I have is that they acted alone, these two individuals, the brothers,” Boston Mayor Thomas Menino told ABC. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel told reporters that he hasn’t seen any intelligence linking the brothers to any terrorist organization, although he emphasized it is still early in the investigation, reports CNN.
Lone gunmen. No different from Ted Kaczynski or Harris and Klebold. Criminals, with or without political motivation, and subject to criminal law.
Re: Bush, the regulatory failures were deliberate. Do you remember all the crazy stuff that went on with the MME and other regulatory groups in the 2000s? It's cause he went out of his way to appoint unqualified administrators to those positions. Yes, you can hold the Bush Admin responsible for the Macondo spill, directly. They also cooked up the intel to go to war in Iraq, and continuing to deny it so long after all the facts have come out is, well, kinda sad.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2013-04-22 14:30:46
Oops... only the one par was excerpted. The stuff below (beginning with "lone gunmen") was my commentary.