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2015-10-29 19:43:07
2 votes, rating 4.5
2 votes, rating 4.5
LRB 4 vs. CRP, did Lizards actually got stronger?
Hi there,
just to start a discussion, I wish to elaborate if Lizards under CRP got more competetive then under LRB4.
I do think we can awnser this question positively for the following reasons:
1: DP nerf, overall foul nerf
Objectively, Lizards had pretty limited access to dirty player. While they could use dirty player quite well due to their mobility, a double is a double. The decreased effectiveness of DP also opens up other choices for Skinks on doubles, such as Kick or leader.
2: TV calculation favors players with no doubles
As it stands, a Saurus needs absolutly no doubles to be a great player. Block, Break Tackle, Guard, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Stand Firm and Frenzy are all great skills. Use can be made of some other non doubles.
Skinks do like doubles, but leader actually makes TV more efficient, and Kick is pretty independent of the player you have it on. Given Lizards abilities to make great use of Kick, it is easily worth 30K TV.
3: Increased odds in the One turn score game:
Stand firm is now far more widespred, and Sidestep is as common as ever. Mid to High TV Lizards will generally have 1-2 Stand firms (Krox + a Frenzy Saurus) and 2-3 Sidestepping Skinks. This makes it very difficult to one turn vs. Lizards (compared to LRB4 where stand firm was doubles). Meanwhile, with Frenzy being regular skill and Sidestep effectively meaning one less push neccessary, their tools to score one turners have increased in likeliness of being available.
4: Lizardmen inducement options/Star players have generally greatly increased.
5: Wizards have somewhat weakened if used against Lizards (no things are AG independent) and are a bit rarer.
Negatives:
1: Proliferation of Claw and Clawpomb means that Sauri that arent prone are far more vulnerable.
2: Break Tackle Dodging with Stand Firm is no longer a safe action.
I am btw. not stating that Lizards have gotten the biggest powerboost (point 4 is true for pretty much everyone), just that Lizards have improved their overall position.
just to start a discussion, I wish to elaborate if Lizards under CRP got more competetive then under LRB4.
I do think we can awnser this question positively for the following reasons:
1: DP nerf, overall foul nerf
Objectively, Lizards had pretty limited access to dirty player. While they could use dirty player quite well due to their mobility, a double is a double. The decreased effectiveness of DP also opens up other choices for Skinks on doubles, such as Kick or leader.
2: TV calculation favors players with no doubles
As it stands, a Saurus needs absolutly no doubles to be a great player. Block, Break Tackle, Guard, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Stand Firm and Frenzy are all great skills. Use can be made of some other non doubles.
Skinks do like doubles, but leader actually makes TV more efficient, and Kick is pretty independent of the player you have it on. Given Lizards abilities to make great use of Kick, it is easily worth 30K TV.
3: Increased odds in the One turn score game:
Stand firm is now far more widespred, and Sidestep is as common as ever. Mid to High TV Lizards will generally have 1-2 Stand firms (Krox + a Frenzy Saurus) and 2-3 Sidestepping Skinks. This makes it very difficult to one turn vs. Lizards (compared to LRB4 where stand firm was doubles). Meanwhile, with Frenzy being regular skill and Sidestep effectively meaning one less push neccessary, their tools to score one turners have increased in likeliness of being available.
4: Lizardmen inducement options/Star players have generally greatly increased.
5: Wizards have somewhat weakened if used against Lizards (no things are AG independent) and are a bit rarer.
Negatives:
1: Proliferation of Claw and Clawpomb means that Sauri that arent prone are far more vulnerable.
2: Break Tackle Dodging with Stand Firm is no longer a safe action.
I am btw. not stating that Lizards have gotten the biggest powerboost (point 4 is true for pretty much everyone), just that Lizards have improved their overall position.
Comments
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-10-29 19:52:28
Don't you mean Stand Firm is far less widespread?
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-10-29 19:54:10
I mean as in I hardly ever see it. Or not more than in LRB4 when it was a trait anyway.
Posted by Woodstock on 2015-10-29 19:55:10
Think it is about the same if not weaker due to (c)pomb being so widely spread.
Posted by Loew on 2015-10-29 20:07:46
Play them in the Box and evaluate if your statement still stands ;)
(they are still very good, maybe better than in LRB4 while they are healthy, but it is much more likely now that you have to replace a few of the big guys back-to-back, and at that point they become quite bad - also I have the feeling, without having the math ready, that skinks go much more sploosh now that every second blitzer has tpomb...because of that, skinks with ssdt seem not as usefull as they were)
(they are still very good, maybe better than in LRB4 while they are healthy, but it is much more likely now that you have to replace a few of the big guys back-to-back, and at that point they become quite bad - also I have the feeling, without having the math ready, that skinks go much more sploosh now that every second blitzer has tpomb...because of that, skinks with ssdt seem not as usefull as they were)
Posted by Roland on 2015-10-29 21:22:51
Stand firm was a trait back then, so on doubles only.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-10-30 00:24:37
We know, but I see it way less now than during LRB4, because back then the skill was hell-a-cool!
Unlike now when it's just useful.
Unlike now when it's just useful.
Posted by Mightypeon on 2015-10-30 00:40:56
Back then it also had a lot of competition on doubles.
Dodge, Sidestep and Frenzy mostly.
Dodge, Sidestep and Frenzy mostly.
Posted by Fortis on 2015-10-30 02:45:19
Not every environment is the box.
They are really strong in resurrection tournament formats except that they have a really rough Wood Elf matchup.
They are also really strong in perpetual leagues despite CPOMB being widespread because they have a strength advantage against the CPOMB teams making it difficult to maximise blocks. One of their big advantages is that in a similar manner to Orcs they can be really competitive across a wide range of TVs which is important for 50+ game perpetual league play.
They're not fantastic (but I suspect still very good) in the Box because there is more CPOMB.
They are really strong in resurrection tournament formats except that they have a really rough Wood Elf matchup.
They are also really strong in perpetual leagues despite CPOMB being widespread because they have a strength advantage against the CPOMB teams making it difficult to maximise blocks. One of their big advantages is that in a similar manner to Orcs they can be really competitive across a wide range of TVs which is important for 50+ game perpetual league play.
They're not fantastic (but I suspect still very good) in the Box because there is more CPOMB.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-10-30 04:02:28
Lizards are godlike in both Ranked and Box as long as they don't stumble into a Clawpomb spam match up. And those games are still winnable, but the drop of is quite steep from godhood to just boys in the hood.
Posted by Gitzbang on 2015-10-30 11:42:29
Interestingly enough i feel the nerf on Stand Firm has hit the Lizzies quite hard. Sure, in LRB 4 it competed with Dodge or SS, but SS was far less useful in the old client where you couldn't use it on chainpushes and Dodge is nice - but having absolutely NO risk involved in trying to dodge made SF a prime choice for Break Tackle - Cage Breaking Lizzies.
The Claw / PO / MB thing actually pretty much boils down to PO granting you a reroll for your injury roll. Prior to LRB 4 PO was great for lizzies - adding Strength to Armour Roll and thus being even better than Claw -, during LRB 4 Claw / RSC combination did almost the same to your Saurus if not more.
Problem arose in my opinion during LRB 5 / CRP with the easy access to the Claws in addition with the injury reroll.
I believe the problem here is that LIzzies are rather depended on having a full squad of biggies and at least four of the seven with a decent skill set once the TV reaches certain heights. While other teams can replace players - at least for one match - fairly easily a Lizzie squad with one Krox and four Saurus will be a lot harder pressed to perform.
In general i think the powerlevel of lizzies hasn't changed THAT much between the editions. They could compete well in LRB 4 and can hold their own now.
The Claw / PO / MB thing actually pretty much boils down to PO granting you a reroll for your injury roll. Prior to LRB 4 PO was great for lizzies - adding Strength to Armour Roll and thus being even better than Claw -, during LRB 4 Claw / RSC combination did almost the same to your Saurus if not more.
Problem arose in my opinion during LRB 5 / CRP with the easy access to the Claws in addition with the injury reroll.
I believe the problem here is that LIzzies are rather depended on having a full squad of biggies and at least four of the seven with a decent skill set once the TV reaches certain heights. While other teams can replace players - at least for one match - fairly easily a Lizzie squad with one Krox and four Saurus will be a lot harder pressed to perform.
In general i think the powerlevel of lizzies hasn't changed THAT much between the editions. They could compete well in LRB 4 and can hold their own now.
Posted by CanvasBack on 2015-10-31 07:04:38
In LRB4, Bad Kick was on a 6 on the kick-off event table. Having the ball go out of bounds while receiving was a fairly regular event and enabled the sauri to start with the ball and score tds. Without Bad Kick, the ball goes out of bounds on a kick-off infrequently at best. Much harder to skill a saurus after LRB4.
Posted by RC on 2015-10-31 15:56:29
The old stand firm was amazingly good. Failed dodges did not result in turnovers instead he did nothing :)