El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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 Posted:
Oct 13, 2023 - 14:53 |
 
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Yes, this seems like a good consolidation and recommendations, that's why I would put them in the following order:
C, A, D and B.
Why? Because I think having more TRR of the bat, ensures more flexibility as buying a TRR later is still 120k, only the Vargheist is more expensive.
I think the decision on the Vargheist is very comparable to the choice of taking a Rogre on skaven or not. If you do want them, you start your team with him, because if you need to save up for him, this might take a very long time and by then a rookie Vargheist has limited impact. |
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By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 13, 2023 - 15:22 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | Ok can we consolidate this, and update https://fumbbl.com/help:BB20VampireSetUp
I think the core of a recommendable build needs 3-4 Rerolls, 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, and either a Varg or a Blitzer.
That's 4 bloodlusters, and you can get 7-8 thralls with the rest
There's then only 2 choices to be made: Varg vs Blitzer, and extra Reroll vs extra Thrall
So that leaves these 4 combinations:
A) 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, 1 Vargh, 4 Rerolls, 7 Thralls = 990, 11 players
B) 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, 1 Vargh, 3 Rerolls, 8 Thralls = 970, 12 players
C) 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, 1 Blitzer, 4 Rerolls, 8 Thralls = 990, 12 players
D) 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, 1 Blitzer, 3 Rerolls, 9 Thralls = 970, 13 players
The important question for a recommended build is:
Which of these is least likely to end in disaster for a coach's first game with vamps? I'm leaning towards option C |
You don't like my build so much eh? MA8 is REALLY GOOD.
E) 2 Throwers, 2 Runners, 1 Blitzer, 3 Rerolls, 7 Thralls = 990, 12 players
Also, i think C is still better as a recommended build, this build is more for people that already have some idea of how to protect and limit their vampires. |
Last edited by Nelphine on Oct 13, 2023; edited 1 time in total |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 13, 2023 - 15:27 |
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| El_Jairo wrote: |
I think the decision on the Vargheist is very comparable to the choice of taking a Rogre on skaven or not. If you do want them, you start your team with him, because if you need to save up for him, this might take a very long time and by then a rookie Vargheist has limited impact. |
I disagree completely.
Mighty blow is waaaay better than claw. Prehensile tail is waaaaay better than either disturbing presence (yhetee) or +1 AV (Vargheist)
A Rat Ogre has +2 strength over any skaven alternative, not +1. A Rat Ogre only has -1 agility over most skaven alternatives, NOT -3.
But even with that, a Rat Ogre is STILL only a choice on a Skaven team. Some people will (rightfully for their playstyle/preference) not take a Rat Ogre.
On the other hand, a Vargheist compared to a blitzer, is barely an upgrade, and given the agility difference, i still say its a downgrade. So if you still have to think about a Rat Ogre, then a Vargheist shouldn't even be a thought. It should simply be a no, never touch this crap.
The only reason I would ever consider a Varg, is for LOS duty, simply so that you don't have to expose your AV 8+ players, or your key vampires. But.. 4 thralls is better than 1 Varg for that job. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Oct 13, 2023 - 15:35 |
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Regarding option E)
Yea MV8 is indeed very good, but 1 runner provides it. The second runner doesn't provide as much improvement as the first runner does
Compared to C) you've dropped 1x RR and 1x Thrall to gain the 2nd Runner
So you've got more mobility and Gazes, but it's worse in terms of ... you've got less thralls and they're now more in danger
It could well be better for a strong coach
It might be worse for a average or beginner coach though. And it'll take more gold to bring it up to a parity of development |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 13, 2023 - 15:40 |
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yeah i think C is still the better recommendation, i'd just take E over D (and of course over A and B) |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Oct 13, 2023 - 15:46 |
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Not that this is the right thread for Varg discussion, but he's also got Regen
Also Bloodlust has one massive advantage over the other Big Guy negatraits, in that you can still take your action even if you fail it.
You can activate and then go bonehead. Rather than: bonehead and not activate
The other negatraits don't have the built in turnover though, so with an Ogre etc you can attempt to move them at the start of your turn, and if they fail you re-adjust your plans
Whereas the Varg generally needs to be used at the end of your turn
I started my team with Varg because I was excited about his potential.. but probably Blitzer was more sensible. The frenzy is fun though, gaze a screen and then surf through it |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 13, 2023 - 15:50 |
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Animal Savagery has the same type of 'you can still activate if you fail, as long as you plan' and its not a turn over.
So yeah, bloodlust has its pros over other negatraits, but that doesn't make it worth the downgrade (yet more expense) compared to a blitzer. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 13, 2023 - 15:54 |
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on topic, for me, i'd present C as the core recommendation.
i'd then show E as the advanced version for those who already know how to manage re-rolls.
i'd show D as the conservative option for those who hate taking too much damage
i'd show A OR B (but not both) as the wild 'lets have fun with big guys' option. |
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Decksign
Joined: Mar 25, 2016
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| Posted:
Oct 13, 2023 - 17:40 |
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Vargheist is one of the best big guys in 2020, that's why you'd take him over a blitzer if you have to decide between the 2. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 13, 2023 - 17:54 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | on topic, for me, i'd present C as the core recommendation.
i'd then show E as the advanced version for those who already know how to manage re-rolls.
i'd show D as the conservative option for those who hate taking too much damage
i'd show A OR B (but not both) as the wild 'lets have fun with big guys' option. |
Agree. I'll edit the help page some time soon. Thanks for the input |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 13, 2023 - 18:29 |
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| Decksign wrote: | | Vargheist is one of the best big guys in 2020, that's why you'd take him over a blitzer if you have to decide between the 2. |
i mean.. trolls are the best. treemen are second best. and arguably every other big is bad, so you only take them if your team needs something specific that can't be offered elsewhere on the team (such as the krox or beast of nurgle). with a varg.. the blitzers offers it. so whether or not the varg is somehow better than many bigs, that doesn't make a varg any good. |
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Decksign
Joined: Mar 25, 2016
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Oct 13, 2023 - 19:10 |
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This big guy's biggest flaw is Loner, other than that he will always behave and do something when you activate it.
Only treemen can do the same but they're stuck for the rest of the drive if they fail.
So we don't agree at all on the Vargheist. |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Oct 13, 2023 - 19:48 |
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| Nelphine wrote: |
i mean.. trolls are the best. treemen are second best. and arguably every other big is bad |
It's rare me and grandad agree so much on something
The only exception is arguably guaranteed activation big guys such as rogars and yes, varg. The varg is kinda like a clawtroll or a regenrogar... He's good, he's definitely not troll or treeman good. |
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