HenningEksteen
Joined: Sep 30, 2022
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 Posted:
Jun 25, 2025 - 18:14 |
 
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ok, what about a middle ground:
players with either Extra Arms, Sure Hands, Monstrous Mouth etc can benefit from a +1 modifier to pickup if they start their turn next to the ball and if no opposition player is standing within 3 squares
+
players can spend half their movement (rounded down) to benefit from a +1 modifier to pickup if no opposition player is standing within 3 squares |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 25, 2025 - 18:18 |
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The second rule doesn't seem balanced, for the reasons I explained.
You could try to pick up the ball with a Gnome Treeman (or another high ST player), for example, and then stall (or even score, in some situations).
High ST clumsy players should struggle to pick the ball up, otherwise they could break the game.
A Gnome Treeman would pick the ball up 75% with the +1 and 1 rr.
It's very likely, then good luck stealing the ball from him! |
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HenningEksteen
Joined: Sep 30, 2022
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Jun 25, 2025 - 18:25 |
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There is a lot of ifs in that scenario and I highly doubt a gnome treeman needing to be alone with the ball to pick it up and run more than half the pitch without being roadblocked or rooted is a viable strategy to break the game. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jun 25, 2025 - 18:35 |
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At any point in your turn at which a player, who is not marked or marking, has taken no more than half its movement on a any action that allows a Move maneuver, if this player is in a square with the ball and has not moved this activation while holding the ball, the player's coach may, at the cost of that player's activation, add +1 to any one AG or PA roll.
Holding the ball? Pass without moving at +1 if you're in the clear.
Move up to half, pick up in the clear, pass from there at +1.
Flub a catch from the clear on a native 2+? Burn your action, get +1. Now you got the ball, but you're not going anywhere.
Flub the pickup in the clear? Add +1, end your movement, but only if you still had at least half your MA left. Can't pass or hand off now, though.
d8 passing ofc. Adjust elf costs slightly down to account for this not being as good on them.
Even a prone/stunned enemy on the ball ruins it, though. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 25, 2025 - 18:57 |
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| HenningEksteen wrote: | | There is a lot of ifs in that scenario and I highly doubt a gnome treeman needing to be alone with the ball to pick it up and run more than half the pitch without being roadblocked or rooted is a viable strategy to break the game. |
If you just need to keep the ball to stall the Treeman doesn't need to move at all.
Also, the Treeman could be set up near a corner, with another adjacent Treeman protecting him with Guard. A Gnome could pick the ball up then hand it off to a Treeman, then, in case of failed catch, it would be a 4+ Treeman pick up (instead of a 5+ catch).
If I had to stall with Gnomes to secure a tie I would do that.
Anyway, that was just an example, because the Gnome Treeman has no Loner, so better odds than a Loner Big Guy.
Even with Loner, anyway, a high ST player could still pick the ball up too easily.
It could be a MA 6 Kroxigor, just to make another example, not as slow as a Treeman.
Mind, I'm not adverse to modifier ideas, but on a D6 they don't scale very well.
In case of a dedicated player with some specific skills such as Sure Hands I think it makes sense to give them a bonus, but clumsy high ST players should not get it, in my opinion. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jun 25, 2025 - 20:05 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | The second rule doesn't seem balanced, for the reasons I explained.
You could try to pick up the ball with a Gnome Treeman (or another high ST player), for example, and then stall (or even score, in some situations).
High ST clumsy players should struggle to pick the ball up, otherwise they could break the game.
A Gnome Treeman would pick the ball up 75% with the +1 and 1 rr.
It's very likely, then good luck stealing the ball from him! |
Ban Morg, I agree. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 25, 2025 - 20:27 |
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Already banned in Competitive division.  |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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Jun 26, 2025 - 11:01 |
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The chance of failing the Pick Up is a mechanism balancing the offence against the defense, it punishes bad positioning similar to the Blitz Kick off event. Changes to it have the potential to be game breaking, for example as pointed out an easier Pick up for ST4 or ST5 players that are not intended as ball carriers.
Also the rules proposed here seem to complex, BB rules have to work on tabletop, where the coaches need to remember them correctly themselves. The game is already suffering from rules bloat in my opinion with the new traits and star player special rules.
As annoying as it is to loose a Drive to multiple failed pick ups in a row, it is a good reminder that this game was conceived with a high amount of satire. And if you play Tomb Kings you deliberately chose to accept this challenge;)
If the pickup should made be easier I would suggest the following:
If a player with Primary Passing access failed to pick up a ball that is not in an enemy tacklezone for two turns in a row, he can automatically pick up the ball in the following turn. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Jun 26, 2025 - 11:11 |
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Repeated from here: https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=778023&highlight=pickups#778023
"I'd like something like: If you start activation adjacent to the ball and aren't marked, you get a bonus +1
Failed pickups are part of the game, so it'd affect the meta, makes it harder for ball hawks like skaven, elves, vamps. and make it easier for .. everyone else. which is the wrong direction for game balancing probably... elves etc need more help elsewhere" |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Jun 26, 2025 - 16:43 |
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Failed pickups are an important part of the game to give a downside to teams like khemri. Learning to mitigate risk is an important skill in this game |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 26, 2025 - 17:25 |
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With Pouring Rain there is not much to do to mitigate risks when you have to pick the ball up as Tomb Kings. Yes, you can make layered screens to protect the ball in case of failed pick ups, but that will not increase the pick up chance. You can protect well the ball, but if you can't pick it up you will not score. Basically, it's not even a match, it turns into a failed-pick-up slot machine.
That means that some games can be decided just by failed pick ups, which is a randomness you have no control at all on.
A rostered Weather Mage could help, but he can't be rostered. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 26, 2025 - 18:00 |
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I've always felt pick ups should be +1 if there are no opposition players within 3 squares....
It should be a straight forward roll really, and within 3 squares would adequately enough represent opposing pressure that could lead to mistakes.
This would also add some tactical consideration to Kick... and potentially Kicking short to "Presssure" the ball |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 26, 2025 - 18:04 |
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| Garion wrote: | I've always felt pick ups should be +1 if there are no opposition players within 3 squares....
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If that is considered too good, at least a +1 when starting a turn adjacent to the ball and without opponents within 3 squares (and maybe with a skill such as Sure Hands as requirement, or Sure Hands could just always give the +1, even at first pick up attempt, not only when starting a turn adjacent to the ball).
That sounds to me as a good compromise between strategy (protecting the ball in case of failed pick ups) and not making too hard the pick ups.
I agree that teams with AG 4+ players are supposed to struggle to pick the ball up, it's one of their drawbacks, but it has the potential to be gamebreaking (especially with Pouring Rain).
First attempt failed is ok, but after that the +1 would help to pick the ball up and start the offensive drive.
Otherwise, 3 or even more turns could be just a struggle vs the pick up, not vs the opponent.
A game should be first and foremost vs the opponent's moves, not vs sheer randomness. |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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Jun 26, 2025 - 21:36 |
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Do You really wish to make the offence easier to mitigate some rare bad luck experiences?
I think every way to make the pick up easier will shift the balance from defense towards offence. Not only because of less possibilities to disrupt early and needing a secure positioning in the first turn. Also the ball sacking will get harder: Like already said easier pick up will mean more high strength AG4+/(or even 5+) ball carriers like Bull Centaurs etc., also easier pick up will devaluate the sure hands skill, which will lead to more carriers with blodge for example.
One could argue that this would increase the value of strip ball, but still the balance will be shifted towards the offence.
When I look at the probabilities (I hope I did them right), I think that the desire to make the pick up easier is based on negative perception bias:
Pick Up with Ag 3+
1. try success chance 66.6%, failing 1/3 times
2. try: 88.8%; 1/9
3. try: 96.3%; 1/27
4. try: 98.8%; 1/81
Pick Up with Ag 4+ (or pouring rain with 3+)
1. try: 50 %; 1/2
2. try: 75 %; 1/4
3. try: 87,5 %; 1/8
4. try: 93,75 %; 1/16
(Note: I think the four tries should happen in two turns using sure hands or re-rolls)
My conclusion is that it is fine as it is, if you consider the following:
- Pouring rain is 5,5% that's 1 out of 18 drives that the game gives you a different, harder challenge for your offence, adding variety to the overall experience.
- Ag 4+ pieces are not intended as ball carriers (Tomb Kings being the exception for coaches to deliberately choose the challenge of a harder offence)
- Sure Hands is an essential skill for your ball carrier
- If You don't have Sure Hands use a Re-roll if your position is not super solid, always use the re-roll on the second try.
- The very rare bad luck experiences, where you don't get to pick up the ball for tree turns in a row make for games that you remember, BB would be more bland without them. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 26, 2025 - 22:17 |
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| moph wrote: | | Like already said easier pick up will mean more high strength AG4+/(or even 5+) ball carriers like Bull Centaurs etc. |
Currently Chaos Dwarfs suck. Even if they had ST 4 Bull Centaurs ball carriers the team would not be overpowered.
Let's not forget that Break Tackle has been nerfed, that you can't nominate them and that with Season Re-Draft is hard to build such expensive players and keep them for long. Even with a freak Bull Centaur the team would still be bad.
| moph wrote: |
also easier pick up will devaluate the sure hands skill |
I suggested to give the +1 to players with Sure Hands, as one possible rule. That would actually make Sure Hands more valuable.
| moph wrote: |
which will lead to more carriers with blodge for example.
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There are already lot of ball carriers with Blodge, so, what is the problem? Adding +1 to pick up would not affect a lot the Blodger ball carriers.
They could skip Sure Hands and get Blodge faster, but again, that could be fixed by giving the +1 modifier to Sure Hands skill.
| moph wrote: |
One could argue that this would increase the value of strip ball, but still the balance will be shifted towards the offence. |
Strip Ball sucks. It's quite decent only at very low TV. To be better it should make a test with D6 vs Sure Hands players. For example, something like this: Sure Hands doesn't automatically cancel Strip Ball. Instead, a test is made: (Strip Ball player's ST + AG + D6) > (Sure Hands player's ST + AG + D6) = successful Strip Ball test.
About the pick up:
the problem is when an AG 4+ player tries to pick the ball up in Pouring Rain.
It could take 2-3 turns just to pick the ball up, with a paranoid protection required, sacrificing some blocks, too, probably (thus removing fewer opponent players that will be used to defend/pressure).
That means that on turn 2-3 many players are probably positioned to cover the ball, not to advance.
That means having to advance very quickly, taking lots of risks. It could not be even possible at all vs a column defence, no matter how much well you play, and that just because you failed some pick ups.
It's not just a matter of picking the ball up, but, even if you pick it, it could be too late to score (due to wasting turns and having to protect the ball, keeping the players in a defensive, deep position).
That's the big issue.
With the +1 modifier the second and further attempts would be more likely, reducing the turns wasted.
About the rarity of Pouring Rain games: honestly, I don't care if they happen about the 5.55% of the drives, when they happen I wasted 1 hour of my time (and that's, in my book, a huge amount).
If +1 modifier seems too good (I don't think so, if added as extra effect to Sure Hands, when the ball is adjacent to player at start of turn only), then a rostered Weather Mage priced 15k should be added to the staff.
If not rostered, then hiring a Weather Mage should be always possible, regardless of TV difference. |
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