FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 17:21

Nelphine wrote:

i don't see why people will take random skills (except on throwaway players that don't really need skills, and so you save spp and then roll random just to see if you get something).

for instance, why would i ever take a random skill on a player with A access who starts with block, or a player with G access who starts with Dodge?

and by definition, most of your spp is going to go onto the players who start with skills. therefore most skills simply won't be random. and even if your throw away player rolls well, what are you going to keep your block sure hands Ghoul (who costs 110k) or your block tackle zombie (who costs 60k)? no matter how good that zombie is, the ghoul matters far more for winning the next game.

Allot of players will benefit from random skills... you get more skills and you get them earlier than otherwise.

I guess that in a matchmaking environment it will perhaps matter less, unless you just roll random and kick the player if it does not get what you want.

In league play then random skills will be quite interesting even if some are pretty weak. Even a weak skill at +10k can be useful and several random will for the most part produce allot of useful skills too. You also can use both random and chosen skills to get more cost effective players.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 17:33

So in the interests of conversation (because I do enjoy a lot of this thread), can you provide me 4 example of where you think random skills would be worthwhile? And do you have any problem with the example and logic I gave for my example as to why I think it would be bad (and therefore, overall, I don't expect to see random skills being used in any meaningful fashion.)

Uber

Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 17:38

CAB wrote:

So... because I give some input to how it could look like and perhaps possible might want to play on FUMBBL I don't matter?!?

There also are a general Blood Bowl stuff discussed which i certainly can have an opinion on as well.

Correct, when it comes to determining the future of the site, I'd rather listen to those who have invested time and have extensive experience on the site than to the musings of some random outsider.

Anyway, you're just rehashing things that have already been said.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 17:45

Maybe on cheap linemen such as Zombies/Skeletons/Gnoblars taking a random skill could work, so, if you don't like what you rolled you just fire them and try again, but on expensive positionals I don't think you would risk to mess a build by taking a random skill.

Uber

Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 17:58

Nelphine wrote:

So in the interests of conversation (because I do enjoy a lot of this thread), can you provide me 4 example of where you think random skills would be worthwhile? And do you have any problem with the example and logic I gave for my example as to why I think it would be bad (and therefore, overall, I don't expect to see random skills being used in any meaningful fashion.)

I think the way it's gonna happen is when you have extra money or right before redraft, you roll randoms and see what comes up. If you get something good you keep the guy, if not you cycle the player.

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Doofr

Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:02

stej wrote:

Low TV games (1000 - 1400)- dominated by starting skill access and dice
Mid TV games (1400 - 1800)- skills are more balanced out, game more about skill of the coach
High TV (1800+) - all critical skills are taken.OP combo's and dice dominate.
Player attrition is always a painful element and can make any given match "un fun". I've sure played out a few boring first half's vs bash teams who removed all 3 of my LOS on the first turn.

Disagree for high tv, dice dont dominate more high tv than at the others tv.

Skill of the coach are criticals like at the other tv , just not the exactly the same skillset.

You will find almost always the same coachs who win at high tv (majors etc )and its because of their skillset.

Some coach are better at low tv some are better at high tv.

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Doofr

Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:10

Uber wrote:

Nelphine wrote:

So in the interests of conversation (because I do enjoy a lot of this thread), can you provide me 4 example of where you think random skills would be worthwhile? And do you have any problem with the example and logic I gave for my example as to why I think it would be bad (and therefore, overall, I don't expect to see random skills being used in any meaningful fashion.)

I think the way it's gonna happen is when you have extra money or right before redraft, you roll randoms and see what comes up. If you get something good you keep the guy, if not you cycle the player.

Damm, i thought we would see legends gobs with random skills.... Surprised

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Lyracian

Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:10

CAB wrote:

In BB2020 you will see allot of variety due to random skills... and in the current version the variety comes through the positional in different teams make up for that variety in a great way.

I agree. At the moment High or Low TV teams are all same. It is just the number of double skills that make them different and maybe one coach prefers Stand Firm over Mighty Blow but almost no variety.

Nelphine wrote:

So in the interests of conversation (because I do enjoy a lot of this thread), can you provide me 4 example of where you think random skills would be worthwhile? And do you have any problem with the example and logic I gave for my example as to why I think it would be bad (and therefore, overall, I don't expect to see random skills being used in any meaningful fashion.)

My plan is to use lots of random skills. You are not forced to take everything random.

In fact the cost of Skills means you are best to pick your first two skills and then buy random after that. Given the shorter life expectancy of players you can get to Legend before they have to retire.

Example #1: Undead Mummy or Goblin Troll
20 SPP Gets you Guard and Block (in either order)
39 SPP More gets you to Legend with four more skills

That is less than the 76 you needed for Super Star under LRB. My Mummy cost is +100k the same cost of having five skills under LRB and less than if one had been Block.

#2: Skaven
When I already have 3 blodgestep (or whatever) Runners and the new guy gets a first skill I will take Random Mutation. If it is good keep him if not sack and train up the new-new player!

#3: All linemen will take random skills as there are plenty of good general options - Block/Wrestle, Kick, Dirty Player, Pro. Any with bad rolls will just not get hired again next season; in fact most line players will get trashed since you can carry forward so few players.

#4: All third season players. Cost makes it impossible for most teams to rehire a player for a fourth season. Therefore during third season taking random skills maximizes your value out of that player.

Doofr

Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:18

Lyracian wrote:

CAB wrote:

In BB2020 you will see allot of variety due to random skills... and in the current version the variety comes through the positional in different teams make up for that variety in a great way.

I agree. At the moment High or Low TV teams are all same. It is just the number of double skills that make them different and maybe one coach prefers Stand Firm over Mighty Blow but almost no variety.

What a bull....

Shows me several high tv teams who look the same.

Are you seriously claiming that with a skillset selection when you can chose your skills , teams will be more different ?

But seeing your teams on fumbbl, i doubt you never played high tv.

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Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:36

1a) Ok, so you're saying (IN ONE SEASON) that your mummy or troll will take a random skill for their third skill. No offense, but I don't consider any planned around a mummy or troll getting ~30spp in one season to be something to plan on. Therefore, I don't consider this to happen enough to actually impact any real teams.

1b) But what about a second season mummy or troll? Well, if you believe that a mummy or troll is worth keeping around for multiple seasons (and even then, getting ~30spp in TWO seasons is .. not exactly normal for either of those players, particularly with random mvp), then why in the name of anything would you risk giving it a random skill? Now you're risking a multi-season investment to get thick skull or multiblock. No, I don't think that's worth it. Sure, some people will still do it, but it will be so uncommon that it will not help add to 'variety' of games.

2) You're going to take a random double.. instead of wrestle or block? Ok, so you do that, and you fire him 3/4 of the time. End of the season comes along, you finally get one you don't fire. Now.. do you rehire the blodgestep (+ probably at least one more skill by now) runner, or do you rehire the runner that has one mutation and nothing else? I'm going to rehire the 3+ skill runner myself. Therefore, again, we still have no variety in actual use players.

3) Linemen .. have 12 options. You've listed 5, but honestly, a linemen with nothing but Pro isn't worth keeping around either. So 2/3 of the time you get a skill you don't want. Lets say you get 3 linemen like that, lets say zombies. Do you want 3 linemen with bad skills, or do you just want 4 linemen? I'll take the 4th lineman please. This is however a valid category, and most likely the one we'll see the most random skills in. However... if you face a zombie with shadowing, another with kick, another with pro, and another with tackle... honestly how much does that actually change anything? They're still zombies.. that don't have block/wrestle or dirty player. Sure they will Do Something, but.. it's not actually going to change the team. It's still.. just a zombie. I don't consider to actually add variety in any meaningful way.

4) All players you aren't going to rehire. Ok, so they get a random skill, and you don't rehire them. This does not contribute to variety of play either.

Conclusion) Yes, you might see random skills.. but they will not MEANINGFULLY add variety to any team, or any game. They will be on throwaway players, who can't effectively do anything with any skills, or who won't play more than 1 or 2 games at most, and even in those 1 or 2 games, that random skill simply won't make a difference - either the player is already great (someone with several seasons already under their belt) and who already has a very particular playstyle, or they'll be such a bad player, that it won't be relevant what random skill they take (a zombie) unless it happens to be the one you would have picked as a normal (in which case, you still see no variety).

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:38

In terms of random skills I think it will be remained to see how that goes. In my opinion it will highly depend on how long seasons are as there probably is a huge difference if a season are 10 or 20 games and how much the CAP is for redrafting teams.

Short leagues will probably see more random skills, even on positional players as you will be more starved for SPP before the end of the season.

Most positional probably can benefit from one or two chosen skills and then mostly random skills while most lineman can take only random skills.

It also depends if you play in a matchmaking format or a regular league format. In matchmaking you can just farm players with random skills and fire them if you don't like them, in a league you will probably only do that in some rare cases.

Malmir

Joined: May 20, 2008

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:38

CAB wrote:

steinerp wrote:

CAB, unfortunately I suspect you have it backwards. If everyone is playing young teams (under 20 games), you will see less variety in skills and rosters. I fully admit that my teams look basically the same for their first 10 games. Wrestle/Block, Dodge, and Tackle are basically automatic skill choices unless you roll doubles for many players. The elimination of rolling doubles will reduce the skill variety further and teams that need higher TV will will not be seen as much.

In BB2020 you will see allot of variety due to random skills... and in the current version the variety comes through the positional in different teams make up for that variety in a great way.

Only if people take them...and...they...won't

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:40

Uber wrote:

Nelphine wrote:

So in the interests of conversation (because I do enjoy a lot of this thread), can you provide me 4 example of where you think random skills would be worthwhile? And do you have any problem with the example and logic I gave for my example as to why I think it would be bad (and therefore, overall, I don't expect to see random skills being used in any meaningful fashion.)

I think the way it's gonna happen is when you have extra money or right before redraft, you roll randoms and see what comes up. If you get something good you keep the guy, if not you cycle the player.

Well... I used to play FUMBBL at some point, not sure why ther are no games registered on me or it might have been in another account... not sure... but I played FUMBBL a long time ago... so I'm not that much of an outsider actually.

But you are perfectly welcome to ignore me, I suppose that is your right. I will not argue this point any more as it leads nowhere.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:43

Malmir wrote:

CAB wrote:

steinerp wrote:

CAB, unfortunately I suspect you have it backwards. If everyone is playing young teams (under 20 games), you will see less variety in skills and rosters. I fully admit that my teams look basically the same for their first 10 games. Wrestle/Block, Dodge, and Tackle are basically automatic skill choices unless you roll doubles for many players. The elimination of rolling doubles will reduce the skill variety further and teams that need higher TV will will not be seen as much.

In BB2020 you will see allot of variety due to random skills... and in the current version the variety comes through the positional in different teams make up for that variety in a great way.

Only if people take them...and...they...won't

Pretty sure they will... it will depend on the league format and many other circumstances.

Doofr

Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Posted: Nov 09, 2020 - 18:48

CAB wrote:

Malmir wrote:

CAB wrote:

steinerp wrote:

CAB, unfortunately I suspect you have it backwards. If everyone is playing young teams (under 20 games), you will see less variety in skills and rosters. I fully admit that my teams look basically the same for their first 10 games. Wrestle/Block, Dodge, and Tackle are basically automatic skill choices unless you roll doubles for many players. The elimination of rolling doubles will reduce the skill variety further and teams that need higher TV will will not be seen as much.

In BB2020 you will see allot of variety due to random skills... and in the current version the variety comes through the positional in different teams make up for that variety in a great way.

Only if people take them...and...they...won't

Pretty sure they will... it will depend on the league format and many other circumstances.

hmm should i believe Malmir or CAB.....hard to know . ^^

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