Applulz
Joined: Nov 25, 2011
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 Posted:
Dec 17, 2018 - 21:52 |
 
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | Dump-Off is one of the worst skills in the game. I wouldn't even waste a normal skill roll on it if I could. I don't even like it when it comes for free either. It's just terrible.
Does anyone want a rant about why? 
Enjoy! |
Dump-off is a great skill for elves and completely changes how a drive is played if you combine it with nerves.
There are plenty of times where it is simply not feasible to screen for the ball. In those cases it is one of the only skills in the game that will allow you to retain ball possession, or at least it can let you dictate where it lands for your next attempt at recovery.
Here is a recent game where on turn 1 I was able to recover a super lucky ball scatter on a dwarf offense that landed outside his runner's reach. I was completely boxed in by his first moves.
My first move was to wrestle the +st troll slayer. The only non-marked players in range for an assist were the witch elf, and the runner. I really did not want the piling on witch elf stuck in a bunch of dwarves so runner it was. Second move was dodge the ball backwards in order to hand-off to the runner.
Then finally, the nerves runner (who has already moved for an assist) dumps it off safely into my half for a recovery as he is blitzed during the dwarf turn. He got pow'd so a blodger would not have been safe.
I would go mighty blow every time though. |
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delusional
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
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| Posted:
Dec 18, 2018 - 03:22 |
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| HandyKaufman wrote: | | Bendrig wrote: | You're breaking away from common choices anyway, with diving catch and a guard leap lino...
Sure, the "right" way would be Might Blow on at least one and prolly ignore it on the other and go block/wrestle.
But where's the fun in that? (Aside from winning more, maybe) I say go with your first idea and dump-off on both! |
should I win more? |
NOOOOO
Have fun more.
Look, Cookie cutter can win more. But Dumpoff is the only skill that can protect the ball if your opposing team has a good sacker. But it's also FUN.
Sure you will dumpoff. Sure the other team will try to intercept. Sure they may also try to mark likely catchers in range.
But if the opposing team has a Wressle/Leap/Strip ball/jugs (or some other combination). Your Carrier is probably going to loose the ball.
Dump off waste's the blitz.
It forces the opposing team to then Guard the surrounding players. If they already had 2x players on the ball carrier, you should win the ball back and score.
Ofcourse, some coaches will send 1 blitzer at the ball carrier. If the dice are in your favour, take it. If not ... Dump off.
Either way you have just frustrated their blitz. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 18, 2018 - 09:15 |
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| Applulz wrote: | | Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | Dump-Off is one of the worst skills in the game. I wouldn't even waste a normal skill roll on it if I could. I don't even like it when it comes for free either. It's just terrible.
Does anyone want a rant about why?
Enjoy! |
Dump-off is a great skill for elves and completely changes how a drive is played if you combine it with nerves |
Colour me unimpressed. |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Dec 18, 2018 - 15:03 |
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| delusional wrote: |
If the dice are in your favour, take it. If not ... Dump off.
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If the dice are in your favour? You have to choose to dump off or not before the dice are rolled for the block/blitz - that's one of the primary reasons for frustration with it: people scattering/fumbling passes they end up not having had to make. It also takes place before sidestep, fend or any other skill of that nature is taken into account, so the only modifiers possible for a dump-off are passing skills and pro.
In terms of "is it worth rolling X+ then X+ (depending on marking)"... well, some would argue it's almost never in your favour to roll those dice at all and you'd be better off with blodge-SS on your carrier every time.
It is a supremely negative skill. Both in terms of roll input to potential output, and the situations you need to be in in a regular basis to make use of it. |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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| Posted:
Dec 18, 2018 - 15:20 |
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There is a huge learning curve to using more than 1 Dump Off player. I have done a lot of testing its boundaries with a Ranked P'Elf team. Their record isn't the greatest but they are very cool and fun to play, while I work on my own little personal challenge of being able to complete an unprecedented amount of completions in one game.
So, I am all for anyone who at least gives it a shot because I can check out how they are using it, which will help me learn some more best practices.
my team, btw:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&showstats=1&team_id=842442 |
_________________
Stargate!
“In our play we reveal what kind of people we are.” |
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Applulz
Joined: Nov 25, 2011
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| Posted:
Dec 19, 2018 - 00:48 |
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| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: | | delusional wrote: |
If the dice are in your favour, take it. If not ... Dump off.
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It is a supremely negative skill. Both in terms of roll input to potential output, and the situations you need to be in in a regular basis to make use of it. |
Roll a couple 2s+, keep possession of the ball in a situation you normally would not. Seems pretty high reward to the risk; if you can handle some gambling in your game about rolling dice. It is a skill that can be used once a game and pay for itself.
I doubt it is worth building into from scratch, but in the case of delf runners and pelf catchers the combo is already halfway done. |
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Rbthma
Joined: Jan 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 19, 2018 - 02:13 |
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| gamelsetlmatch wrote: | There is a huge learning curve to using more than 1 Dump Off player. I have done a lot of testing its boundaries with a Ranked P'Elf team. Their record isn't the greatest but they are very cool and fun to play, while I work on my own little personal challenge of being able to complete an unprecedented amount of completions in one game.
So, I am all for anyone who at least gives it a shot because I can check out how they are using it, which will help me learn some more best practices.
my team, btw:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&showstats=1&team_id=842442 |
You could look at some replays from when I had this Dump-off/Pass Catcher. It has some value if you are facing high agility teams who utilize a leaping attack as "ball on ground" often means you're getting scored on, but overall I wasn't sold on it and would of rather invested the doubles in Guard/Mighty Blow. Good opponents will tend to mark/blitz the reciever(s) rather than blitzing the dump-off player in my experience.
A trick is all it is, and I really enjoy different builds too - perhaps you can get more mileage out of it than I could though...good luck! |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Dec 19, 2018 - 03:09 |
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| Applulz wrote: | | ArrestedDevelopment wrote: | | delusional wrote: |
If the dice are in your favour, take it. If not ... Dump off.
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It is a supremely negative skill. Both in terms of roll input to potential output, and the situations you need to be in in a regular basis to make use of it. |
Roll a couple 2s+, keep possession of the ball in a situation you normally would not. Seems pretty high reward to the risk; if you can handle some gambling in your game about rolling dice. It is a skill that can be used once a game and pay for itself.
I doubt it is worth building into from scratch, but in the case of delf runners and pelf catchers the combo is already halfway done. |
To be utilised you have to be exposing yourself or taking risks that aren't necessarily necessary. You might see the risk as high reward, I see it as thoroughly pointless in 95% of games. (In your example screenshots for instance I don't know why, if a dump-off with NOS is fine, you don't just screen behind the runner during your own turn and PASS it with NOS?).
It also doesn't really account for (a) INT rolls, and (b) you won't always be able to pass to your favoured receiver, so it's not always 2+,2+. And passing the ball into space adds another roll to your turn anyway if you need to retrieve it.
All of which can generally be avoided/minimalised with proper positioning.
I've only ever used DO at low tv DE and that's only because with it, DE have an almost-weapon against woodie stripball, and that you do, quite frequently end up in not so great positions due to starting with 2rr.
But you're also missing out opportunity cost here - for the catcher the dump-off is a double. That could be guard or mighty blow. Either of those skills should have a much larger effect on a game than dump-off. Every game. To cite the 2% play as evidence you might build towards that when you're giving up a player who has an effect on 98% is shortsighted at best.
This team in the original thread is also in the box. If you spend tv in the box, you better be sure it's worth it. |
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Last edited by ArrestedDevelopment on Dec 19, 2018; edited 2 times in total |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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| Posted:
Dec 19, 2018 - 03:47 |
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It is somewhat discouraging that creative and interesting skills like Dump Off are passed over in favour of uncreative and uninteresting skills. But you just can't deny that the likes of Block/Dodge/MB/Guard are better, which really at the end of the day is the whole argument. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Dec 19, 2018 - 03:52 |
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No one has mentioned what I think might be the most awesome use of Dump Off: chuck it at the enemy blitzer, force them to make a catch in at least one tacklezone, and when it fails you've ended their turn. |
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HandyKaufman
Joined: Jan 08, 2017
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| Posted:
Dec 19, 2018 - 04:54 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | Why are you even posting "asking for advice" then saying should you win more?
Do whatever you want. |
out of the three of us who is being the most sardonic? |
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Bendrig
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 19, 2018 - 09:42 |
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| fidius wrote: | | No one has mentioned what I think might be the most awesome use of Dump Off: chuck it at the enemy blitzer, force them to make a catch in at least one tacklezone, and when it fails you've ended their turn. |
Because it doesn't work this way. Dump Off skill description states explicitly that no-one's turn ends, whatever the result of this pass might be. |
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Jeffro
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 19, 2018 - 23:15 |
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First half referendum results... six successful Dump-Off passes.
Dumperdoos 2 - Diaperdandys 0 |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2018 - 00:03 |
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| Jeffro wrote: | First half referendum results... six successful Dump-Off passes.
Dumperdoos 2 - Diaperdandys 0 |
Dice won.
I have more than 7 excuses.
Don't force me to list them! |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Jeffro
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 20, 2018 - 00:08 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | I have more than 7 excuses.
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Consequently, that is the number of successful Dump-Off passes Trixie had for this game! |
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