| Poll |
| Should the Horrors be added to the Stunty Leeg? |
| Yes, after some playtesting I'd like to see them added. |
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28% |
[ 11 ] |
| Yes, but they are too strong right now. |
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21% |
[ 8 ] |
| Yes, but they are too weak right now. |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
| No, I hate the whole idea and quit messing with Stunty |
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23% |
[ 9 ] |
| No, I like the idea but they need to be completely reworked. |
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7% |
[ 3 ] |
| Undecided, I need to see some playtesting results and/or more debate before deciding. |
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13% |
[ 5 ] |
| I don't care, I shun stunty coaches. |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 38 |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jul 31, 2003 - 06:39 |
 
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Reposted as my edit seriously bugged out my poll.
First off, I'd like to thank Elara for getting me thinking about the Horrors again after I had given up on the whole idea. I hope you don't mind my reworking of your concept.
Here's the Roster:
Horrors of Tzeentch
0-12 Indigo Horror M5 ST2 AG3 AV6 Stunty, Pro AG,PH 50K
0-2 Violet Horror M6 ST2 AG3 AV6 Stunty, Dodge, Extra Arms AG,PH 60K
0-2 Cyan Horror M5 ST2 AG3 AV6 Stunty, Big Hand AG,PH 50K
0-2 Scarlet Horror M4 ST2 AG1 AV8 Stunty, Tentacles, Thick Skull ST,PH 60K
0-2 Azure Horror M6 ST2 AG2 AV7 Stunty, Claws AG, PH 50K
0-2 Chaos Spawn M3 ST7 AG1 AV9 Big Guy, Ball & Chain, Claw, Razor Sharp Claw, Regeneration, 100K
Apoth: Yes (Represents Tzeentchian Intervention)
RRs: 70K (They've got alot of Pro already)
Strengths: Positional Players, Lots of RRs (Tzeentch has blessed them with pro), Access to Mutations
Weaknesses: Unreliable Big Guys (Penalty Roll, B&C), Little Dodge, No TTM (but Extra Arms gives them a slighly better normal passing game)
Fluff: Tzeentch is the Lord fo Change and master of fate. I played up these aspects with this roster. Positional Horrors play to the fact that no horror should look the same. The magenta horrors play up Tzeentch's connection with fate by giving them all pro.
A bit about each of the positions:
1) Indigo Horrors/Linemen: I thought it would be silly to give daemons dodge, especially ones called horrors. I hope that pro makes up for the lack of dodge but isn't too potent.
2) Violet Horrors/Catchers: Extra Arms should help these guys become decent catchers. I was tempted to drop them down to AV5 but felt that should only apply to really fragile things like faeries and snotlings. I could drop dodge if they are too potent.
3) Cyan Horrors/Throwers: I'm not going to step on the gnomes strength and give these guys access to pass. Big Hands should be enough to make them the teams "throwers".
4) Scarlet Horrors/Blockers: I had fun with these guys I was originally going to just have blitzers, but thought ST2 tentaclers with access to ST would be fun. I'm not sure if they need thick skull with AV8. I think AV8 breaks the stunty mold but this is to compensate for their lack of reliable big guys (these guys will be there 2nd half BGs) and numerous players who don't start with dodge (and these guys can't get dodge).
5) Azure Horrors/Blitzers: I don't think claws will be that potent so I boosted there M and AV to give them more of a blitzer feel.
6) Chaos Spawn/Big Guy: I gave them ST7 so they'd get 2db against all the BGs (but I'm not sure if it needs to be that high). I'm uncertain if I should give them both Claw and RSC. I think regeneration is mandatory or they will be buying new BGs alot.
Re: # of positions. It's based of of the orc roster which has 5 positions but I capped them at 2 for each of the positions to leave room for tinkering for play balance.
Concerns:
1) Is pro too powerful on the Indigo Horrors?
2) Are the Chaos Spawn too powerful with ST7 Claw and RSC?
3) Does the fact that the Chaos Spawn should die frequently make up for the fact that Indigo Horrors will be pretty scary stunties when they get dodge?
4) Did I pick appropriate colours for each of the positions? (I actually put some thought into this aspect
5) Will anyone still want to play nurglings if these guys get added?
Overall: Of all the stunty teams I designed, this one is my favourite. I like the fact that it's added a team with positional players by playing around with mutations. My only reservation is the lack of TTM. I might advocate for the brownies to get Right Stuff (they already pay for it) so that there aren't too many non-TTM teams in stunty.
As Always,
Evolve To Stuntydom
Reposted as my edit seriously bugged out my poll. |
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Candlejack
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2003 - 16:09 |
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I don't think the Spawn should get RSC and Claw, one should be enough, giving him pro instead would make sense imo, because i don't think Tzeentch wouldn't bless one of his strongest creatures, that could be a guarant for glorious victories (and glory and fame is what the chaos goods are battling for, isn't it) *g*, or would that unbalance the team? . |
_________________
--
The Sanity Resort |
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Xaos
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2003 - 16:43 |
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Cut the horror's strength back to 6, they'll still have 2db block on all but Treemen and Beasts, and get rid of either rsc or claw.
Even as limiting as ball & chain can be, its also potentialy very possible, and the team shouldn't have both the best positional players in stunty AND the strongest big guys, especially for only 100k for a big guy). B&C is not a penalty. Regen is definitely necessary though.
Otherwise, I love the versatility of the team, and would love to see it in play. |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2003 - 20:53 |
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If you couldn't tell this roster was posted off the top of my head after a request from Mr-Klipp. It hasn't been playtested in the least and definitely needs some work and serious playtesting.
A few issues have come to my attention after I posted it.
1) I had serious reservations about the Chaos Spawn when i first posted it. I put ST7 on the Chaos Spawn mainly for fluff reasons. I'd certainly be much more afraid of the Spawn then a fanatic but I think Claw and RSC should do the trick. The ST7 was also there because this BG shouldn't be getting any skills like other BGs (as they have to rely solely on MVPs and have a reasonably short lifespan). I've only had limited exposure to fanatics, but Klipp pointed out that you probably don't want to have 2 of them on the field at the same time. I did a quick playtest of this roster, and found out why. For those of you who think that Chaos Spawn are the Best Big Guys in stunty, I'd suggest you play a few matches and I think you'll soon find out that they suck almost as much as Treemen. Not only does it only move 3 spaces in a somewhat random direction, but other Big Guys can avoid them with ease. None the less, I'm dropping them down to ST6 but that's primarily because of issue #2.
2) The Scarlet Horror (the one with Tentacles) has only access to ST & PH. With ST2 they didn't get access to MB (leaving them with Guard as their only non-marginal skill choice as BT, PO & Multiple Block aren't very useful with ST2). I modelled them after BOBs, so giving them ST3 in retrospect doesn't seem too out of character. I definitely want to keep them as stunty. I'm not sure if I should drop thick skull and/or give them MA3. I'm leaving them as is for now, as I expect playtesting results will demonstrate that Chaos Spawn, although they appear fierce on paper, are more psychological terrors than real threats on the pitch.
Thus the Scarlet Horrors are in essence their true BGs 
3) I just noticed that while inputting my test roster I gave the blitzers AG3 instead of the origianl AG2 and upped their cost 10K. Any thoughts on these guys? Should I keep them AG2 so they aren't scoring threats?
4) I designed a test roster, the way I thought I'd pick my team if they were implemented. This sort of resolved my issue with the Indigo Horrors. I only had room for 2 Indigo Horrors on my starting lineup, thus I had a hard time seeing if that much pro was an issue. I'd wager most coaches would max out their positional horrors ( 8 ) and chaos spawn ( 2 ) leaving only 6 Indigo horrors in a fully developped roster and even less on a starting one. I'm curious if other coaches would be tempted to do things differently.
Here's what the Revised Roster looks like:
Horrors of Tzeentch Test Roster
0-12 Indigo Horror M5 ST2 AG3 AV6 Stunty, Pro AG,PH 50K
0-2 Violet Horror M6 ST2 AG3 AV6 Stunty, Dodge, Extra Arms AG,PH 60K
0-2 Cyan Horror M5 ST2 AG3 AV6 Stunty, Big Hand AG,PH 50K
0-2 Scarlet Horror M4 ST3 AG1 AV8 Stunty, Tentacles, Thick Skull ST,PH 70K
0-2 Azure Horror M6 ST2 AG3 AV7 Stunty, Claws AG, PH 60K
0-2 Chaos Spawn M3 ST6 AG1 AV9 Big Guy, Ball & Chain, Claw, Razor Sharp Claws, Regeneration, 100K
ReRolls: 70K Apothecary: Yes
Horror Roster
Ideas that I'm bouncing around at present:
1) Dropping the spawn to 0-1 to avoid the inevitable frustration that will arise if you field both at the same time. Giving them access to 0-4 Scarlet Horrors with M3. This would give the team more of a shambling horror type feel. But I'm not sure if I want another team that doesn't have 2 BGs.
2) Dropping the Spawn to ST5 but giving it access to pro. This would make the Spawn much more durable, getting to RR those rolls to see if it collapses would make it more of a BG and less of a "secret weapon".
Feel free to playtest this team or create your own team. If you do the latter, I'd aprreciate it if you sent me a copy that I could put up on my webpage to make it easier for others to playtest.
I'd love to hear your feedback especially if it is informed by some playtesting.
As Always,
Evolve To Stuntydom
Stunty A.N.A.R.C.H.I.S.T. |
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HunterX
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2003 - 21:01 |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2003 - 22:07 |
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| Quote: | | 2) The Scarlet Horror (the one with Tentacles) has only access to ST & PH. With ST2 they didn't get access to MB (leaving them with Guard as their only non-marginal skill choice as BT, PO & Multiple Block aren't very useful with ST2). |
There is a specific problem concerning limiting skill-access to strength:
There are only 6 strength-skills to chose from.  |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 31, 2003 - 22:21 |
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| Xaos wrote: | | B&C is not a penalty.. |
This has to be from someone who has never tried to use them, much less two at once. First off, you have to move them first. Then when they do move, it's random. No tackle zones of course. Then, after every turn, you have a one in 6 chance of collapsing. Fail that, and there is a straight 50% chance of dying, don't die, and you are still out of the game with a badly hurt. Then, if you have been lucky with all that, you have an 8+ penalty roll to worry about after every drive. |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 04, 2003 - 05:30 |
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This team requires a lot of testing. It breaks the mold fairly heavily. The general play-balancing idea was the Chaos Spawn (BGs) aren't very good, need to be replaced frequently and don't have much potential while the stunties have a higher upside potential which they pay for in $ and the fact they don't have dodge to start. I could have gave them normal BGs and balanced out the mutation with lower stats and lower costs. But I wanted to give them a stunty mayhem feature (TTM, Secret Weapons, Really Stupid, etc.). I thought the Spawn would do the trick. But to be certain, I'd like to see if someone could create some TR150 rosters to test out. Feel free to post your rosters in this thread.
Here's a few changes that I have been thinking about if the stunties are way too potent when they develop or if there is an overwhelming preference for these changes:
0-12 Indigo Horror M5 ST2 AG3 AV6 Stunty, Pro AG,PH No Changes in mind
0-2 Violet Horror M6 ST2 AG3 AV Stunty, Extra Arms AG,PH Drop Dodge
0-2 Cyan Horror M5 ST2 AG2 AV6 Stunty, Big Hand P,PH Drop AG to 2 and access to AG but give access to P
0-2 Scarlet Horror M4 ST3 AG1 AV8 Stunty, Tentacles, Thick Skull ST,PH Give Bonehead or Really Stupid to increase stunty mayhem factor
0-2 Azure Horror M6 ST2 AG2 AV7 Stunty, Claws AG, PH Drop AG to 2 and access to AG but give access to ST
0-2 Chaos Spawn M3 ST6 AG1 AV9 Big Guy, Ball & Chain, Claw, Razor Sharp Claw, Regeneration Drop ST to 5 give one of Claw or Fangs but I could give Pro to make them more like BGs
The changes are just contingincies and not all need to apply together (especially the changes to the Spawn). If all were implemented, this would make this team even more unique. The positional horrors would be destined to play their position as quite a few would have access to a very small selection of skills except on a double. (And yes I'm aware that if some players become legends without rolling doubles they may not have a skill to chose). Obviously the costs would need to be changed to be in line with normal stunty players.
Any thoughts?
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism |
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Emmers
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 04, 2003 - 06:26 |
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Why not create some gobbos for them. Little animated shells of gobbo armor. the 13 sons gobbos. Gobbos don't count very high. Then slap on a Lord of Change and call in quits. (not meant to be taken seriously) |
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MattiasF
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 04, 2003 - 09:06 |
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Demons should get access to Physical, with a need to roll double at the skill-roll. (Ouch!)
Maybe impossilbe to allow for gamebalance, but still... Thats the way I would want it to be 
Good very interesting! PM me if you want to play a few tests outside fumbll and we can set something up! |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 05, 2003 - 00:10 |
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Yet another series of changes. I upped the Stunty Mayhem Factor a bunch with these changes. I gave all the Horrors Bonehead which should add a fun chaotic mix to this team. Daemons apparently have a hard time figuring out how this BB game works, none the less Tzeentch has some myserious reason for sending the Horrors to the pitch.
Here's the revised roster with some comments on each of the Horrors:
0-12 Indigo Horror M5 ST2 AG3 AV6 Bonehead, Stunty, Pro AG,PH
One positive (pro), two negatives (no dodge and bonehead) and halfling stats should balance these guys out to make them weaker than most stunties but probably will be equal when they get dodge on their first skill. With 10 positional horrors, you probably won't see teams loaded with many of these guys.
0-2 Violet Horror M6 ST2 AG3 AV6 Bonehead, Stunty, Extra Arms AG,PH
Again one positive for two negatives. Extra arms has got to be one of the weakest and least chosen mutations. It'll take 2 advances before they become good if unreliable catchers.
0-2 Cyan Horror M5 ST2 AG2 AV6 Bonehead, Stunty, Big Hand AG,PH
One good positive (Big Hands) for three negatives (No Dodge, Bonehead, AG2). 3 for 1 may be too tough, but I was thinking of giving them pass. I had another variation in mind, M4 and AG3 (definitely without pass) but I thought AG2 would stop people from whining about Big Hand being too potent and would make giving them pass a more reasonable option.
0-2 Scarlet Horror M4 ST3 AG1 AV8 Really Stupid, Stunty, Tentacles, Thick Skull AG,ST,PH
4 positives (ST3, AV8, Tentacles, Thick Skull) for 4 negatives (M4, AG1, No Dodge, Really Stupid), isn't as harsh as the other positional horrors but this is to make up for their weak Spawn but Really Stupid is a counterbalancing measure. I had to give these guys access to anothter category because you need at least a choice of 7 skills for it to not break the skill generating algorithm. As the Spawn are secret weapons, the natural tendency was to give them G rather than AG access but no G access should prevent these guys from turning into big nasty monsters, just unreliable pests.
0-2 Azure Horror M6 ST2 AG2 AV7 Bonehead, Stunty, Claws AG, PH
One positive (Claw) for 3 negatives (AG2, Bonehead, No Dodge) is a little harsh, but they get goblin M6 and AV7 rather than the halfling M5 AV6 of the Indigo Horrors. This also leaves the door open for giving them access to ST.
0-2 Chaos Spawn M3 ST5 AG1 AV9 Big Guy, Ball & Chain, Claw, Regeneration, Pro G, PH, ST
A slower (M3) and weaker (ST5) fanatic with with Claw. Regeneration and Pro could put them on par with other BGs if you get lucky. They have a very limitied upside as they shouldn't be getting many SPP unlike other teams BGs. Perhaps they are too weak, but they definitely are a Stunty Mayhem Feature.
I'm going to post a revised roster shortly but I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on the cost of these revised horrors. Here's my suggestions:
Indigo Horrors: 40K comparable to chaos halflings.
Violet Horrors: 50K
Cyan Horror: 50K
Scarlet Horror: 80K
Azure Horrors: 50K
Chaos Spawn: 90K comparable to Trolls but definitely not as effective -maybe too expensive for something that dies as much as it will.
Basically, I charged a 10 K premium on all the positional horrors (as I think there weaknesses more then compensate for their mutations). The Scarlet Horror being the exception.
I playtested the earlier roster and contrary to what some people think the mutations aren't overpowering in the least, especially with newbie teams. The team looked pretty balanced at TR100 my only concern was with later team development.
I was discussing new Stunty Teams in general with Mr-Klipp. I was telling him that I thought I'd combed my knowledge of the WHFB universe for fluffy stunty teams and had run out of suitable teams but I had one concept left, inspired by the Vampflings OFaB. I disliked the Vampflings for fluff reason, but they had the Stunty feel which I've labeled as having Stunty Mayhem Factors. I thought that Bonehead/Really Stupid was one of the few potential Stunty Mayhem Features that hadn's been used. A few minutes later and it became obvious that the Horrors deserved this Stunty Mayhem Feature.
Overall, I think this revised roster may be on the weak side. But with good game design, it's probably best to start with teams being too weak then too strong. It's much easier to give them a boost (the access to Pass and Strength that I was mentioning above for example) then it is to weaken them. This philosophy looks like it worked with the Nurglings and Faeries so far. Some were complaining that the Nurglings would suck with AG2 but check their record so far right down at the bottom for the new stunty teams. While the Faeries, are definitely weak and I've got some new changes in mind if this holds up that will increase their Stunty Mayhem Factor.
Any feedback is much appreciated especially if it's backed up by playtesting.
As Always,
Evolve To Stuntydom |
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slackman
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 07, 2003 - 01:08 |
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really, having doubled the number of stunty teams seems to be more than enough for me. and i do agree w/ an earlier post that adding this team would seem to totally negate any need for the nurgling team. but it seems like you've put a lot of work into it, and i, surprisingly, rather like the idea. i like the fact that they dont get weapons, as the gnomes seem to rely almost exlusively on them. their major drawback seems to be their high price, and no dodge. replacing them is going to be tough, esp if you lose important players in the first few games, and you're losing the stunties biggest advantage, being able to dodge through an impentrable line. if i had more time, i'd try them out. but lately, i dont seem to have any.
slackman42 |
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elara
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 09, 2003 - 13:00 |
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The cost of the chaos spawn looks a lot too high - dont compare it to a troll, but rather to a fanatic.
Fanatic 4 6 3 7 50k
Spawn 3 5 1 9 90k
-1MA, -1ST, Big guy, bonehead
+claws, +pro, +regenerate
AG and AV i think are irrelevant to a fanatic (no need to dodge, cant hold ball, and any knock down is auto injury)
I've also ignored skill access, because a fanatic is lucky to get even one skill roll before cardiac arrest - the only obvious power skill is razor sharp fangs which needs a double
Big guy and pro cancel each other out - can't use team RR on double skulls, but you can use pro on unimportant stuff.
-ST means only 1 dice blocks against big guys, so the claw won't be so important - AV6 is likely to break anyway, while blocking a big guy is likely to result in turnover
Which leaves regenerate - a useful skill, given how often fanatics kill themselves vs bonehead and -MA
I'd suggest 60k at the most.
For the other players, cyan horrors should probably be 10k cheaper unless they get pass - big hand is countered by the AG2, they'd need to roll +AG or a double (for extra head) to be decent players. Pass in itself isnt going to help much (5+ for quick pass), but it could combine with other skills to become useful |
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Gnomes are trash
Search
, dropping the ball when you try to pass 
and getting crushed by big guys 
! This team STARTS with everything to counteract these fundamental characteristics. IMHO
