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Poll
Is CLAWPOMB really a problem?
Yes, absolutley
55%
 55%  [ 430 ]
No, Chaos Dwarfs Disagree
20%
 20%  [ 159 ]
Still Haven't Decided
9%
 9%  [ 70 ]
Pie!
15%
 15%  [ 117 ]
Total Votes : 776


Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 22:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
As an exercise what would you do if you HAD to redraft with that team now. Based on your last 20 or 30 games ? What would that look like?


I wouldn't. I would literally let it sit instead of making that decision.

(But if forced, fire all the other skinks, because firing an MA10 Str 3 skink, as well as a couple of wrestle skinks is such an easy decision)
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Garion wrote:
As an exercise what would you do if you HAD to redraft with that team now. Based on your last 20 or 30 games ? What would that look like?


I wouldn't. I would literally let it sit instead of making that decision.

(But if forced, fire all the other skinks, because firing an MA10 Str 3 skink, as well as a couple of wrestle skinks is such an easy decision)


I meant literally do the exercise. To see what it looked like. I will do it tomorrow and see what your team would look like. I'm genuinely curious.

Of course - as seasons pass keeping him would get harder so your point remains.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 22:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Does the Box actually need seasons? If all this panic is because of PO, it would make more sense to not add PO. Wink

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 22:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Also, in particular, I think teams should have at least 5 games to play to build up a treasury before redrafting. Too many teams with over 20/30/x games wouldn't have saved a treasury for the redraft, which is upwards of 200k out of the numbers I was describing, which is a HUGE amount.

Shrieking Bloodstorm would have 1805k to redraft. They're currently at 2330 (except they're missing a Saurus AND a skink, so they're actually at 2520).

They need to cut 715k.

They could cut the missing Saurus (and NOT hire any Saurus to replace him). That's 130k. They cut the missing Skink, and one other rookie Skink. total: 250k. They cut the wrestle catch skink. 360k. they cut the wrestle diving tackle skink. 470k. They cut the 5th re-roll. 530k. They cut the Kroxigor (!!!) 730k.

This assumes NO players want to retire.
This leaves me with a rookie Saurus, and 4 other Saurus. A legendary Skink. An MA10 Str 3 Skink. A Diving Tackle Skink. A rookie Skink. And 2 loner skinks. 4 re-rolls. And 15k Treasury.

5 Saurus, no Krox, 2 loner skinks? Yeah, no. I'm not ever interested in the seasons rules for this team.

Edit: IF given a few games to build up treasury, I'd keep the wrestle diving tackle skink as well, and 'only' end up with 1 loner.

Double edit: IF we ALSO assume that players would have been rolling wants to retire up until now, we can assume that Shindahl costs me an extra 120k, and probably all 3 of my other injured Saurus also want to retire. They would cost an extra 80k, 80k, and 120k to keep. So I'd have to sack all 3 of them. By sacking all 3 injured Saurus (and replacing them with rookie Sauri), I 'get' back 340k. 120k of this goes to Shindahl. That leaves me 220k. I hire a 6th Saurus (so I'm starting with FIVE rookie Sauri). Still have 140k. Get a rookie Krox.

So in this scenario, I have 6 Sauri (FIVE of them are 0 SPP), a rookie Krox, and 5 skinks (legend, stat-freak, wrestle diving tackle, rookie, diving tackle), and still only 4 re-rolls.

Triple edit: With that many rookie Sauri, I HAVE to fire some of the skinks, so the stat freak and the diving tackler would have to go (and be replaced by rookie skinks). That gives me another 130k, which I buy a 6th skink with, and save the other 70k. I need more skills before I can bother with more skinks.

So now I have 75k treasury, 6 skinks (4 rookies, Shindahl, wrestle diving tackle), 6 sauri (5 rookies, and one with 5 skills who has played 36 games already and will start wanting to retire soon), a rookie Krox, and 4 re-rolls. TV of 1690, but Shindahl is bloating my redraft cost up to 1810.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 23:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Ill have to give it the ole college try with my helfs.

Without even thinking about it deeply, seasons would seem to suit woodies and skaven nicely since they can build relatively inexpensive game breakers quickly and repeatedly. To boot, if we get gold credit for TD i will absolutely do so to the point of pain.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 23:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Yup, 5k per touchdown and cas (I don't know if it's ever been clarified what counts as a 'causing a cas' for this, so I'm just going with what FUMBBL displays on the match report. No idea if fouls should be counted, or if other things like crowd surfs should be counted) which I don't really like.

EDIT: I've been told that only SPP generating cas count, so that's a start. Although, somewhat controversial, it's better than nothing.


Last edited by Nelphine on Oct 21, 2019 - 00:43; edited 1 time in total
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 23:14 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Does the Box actually need seasons? If all this panic is because of PO, it would make more sense to not add PO. Wink

1. I am not a fan of seasons in general.
2. I think the execution of the concept is suspect. (Should be probably a flat rate over favoring the good ones.)
3. But i absolutely see it a great fit with TV based matchmaking. Most races are pretty competitive around 1600 TV, and seasons would bring more teams around that range, thus resulting more draws and more matchups, and more competitive games.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 23:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Tv matchmaking means it's far more difficult to play teams like gobbos effectively. The gain in tv matchmaking for other teams MAY exist (I'm not convinced), but it absolutely is a lower gain than the cost to teams who specifically want to go for inducements. Seasons does nothing to change that, ergo, tv matchmaking isn't good. Rostered inducements would need to be a thing.

TEAM matchmaking, to avoid 5+ legend teams from playing 0 game teams (or a wide variety of other possible team matchmaking criteria) I'm fine with. Strictly on tv? I don't see it.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 23:23 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
koadah wrote:
Does the Box actually need seasons? If all this panic is because of PO, it would make more sense to not add PO. Wink

1. I am not a fan of seasons in general.
2. I think the execution of the concept is suspect. (Should be probably a flat rate over favoring the good ones.)
3. But i absolutely see it a great fit with TV based matchmaking. Most races are pretty competitive around 1600 TV, and seasons would bring more teams around that range, thus resulting more draws and more matchups, and more competitive games.


This ^ is basically my feelings also.

I think there are better ways of achieving keeping teams within the desired tv range with on pitch attrition without the need for ageing or seasons. But seasons are an integral part of this editions official rules to keep teams in this tv zone, in which all teams can compete.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 23:40 Reply with quote Back to top

People can already keep their teams around 1600 if they prefer. Restricting development too much will kill many people's incentive to play.

Adding TV for TDs & cas is a bad move for Box/Ranked.

The issue is that there are not enough coaches and I doubt that adding seasons is going to increase the number of people playing.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 23:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Is there really a big fear or assumption that if there was a seasons specific division with some of its own flavor vis a vis tourneys or ladders or whatever, people wouldnt leap at it or it would fracture the current userbase too much?

Speaking personally, I would absolutely love to be a lab rat for seasons but not mortgage the last 6 years of play to do so.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 23:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Adding yet another division would be a disaster IMO.

Seasons will be added to the League division first so people can do it there.

Even then, they would need to be highly configurable or it is not worth bothering. You have to be able to modify it for your league/coaches.

Leagues are already running seasons but doing it manually.

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2019 - 01:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Running one massive Black Box type season as per the rules would be epic. Lots of takers, I bet. Adding some energy to thing, imo. Much like the trophy, only different!

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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2019 - 04:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe incorporate the seasons in with the trophy. IE players can bring back redraft and bring back their trophy teams for the next season.

Also, if I read the rules right, leader rerolls cannot be used for a piling on roll
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2019 - 05:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Tv matchmaking means it's far more difficult to play teams like gobbos effectively.


Certainly if you are blowing money on bribes, it makes TV matchmaking more brutish. However, seasons in general don't necessarily hurt Goblins much, primarily because they are so cheap. One cut Reroll or starting apothecary can help, never mind the bonus gold for Cas. This is after myself calculating from a 6 game Goblin league team I have, which gets excess of 100k starting treasury.

Then again, pure TV matchmaking has always been tough for stunty.

As for seasons in general, it definitely provides a "cap" on team growth but I think with that it encourages teams to "progress" than stagnate. Sadly you lose players you are attached to but, again this was designed with leagues in mind and not perpetual matchmKing. I think things will be ok.
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