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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 01:09 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Numbers are what you make of them, they can generate negativity but they can generate good competition amongst coaches and more games played on the site as well.
Also, they help to quickly spot good coaches to watch if you are interested in a race, this is why it's important that rankings and win rates are not skewed by picking.
If picking were a minor detail, then Box Trophy would be open to normal teams, instead, only hardcore teams vs hardcore teams can play it.
This suggests that not picking is an important factor in competitive play.


We already have a setting for checking CR for just box on the top list. That is usually how I check CR if I want to see some good players for a race. Couldn't you have a subsection of CR coaches earned only in games they played with hardcore teams?
Jim_Fear



Joined: May 02, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 01:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Matt,

Why are you so frightened to face a non-"hardcore" team?

Using your scenario, a Gamefinder team plays 15 matches, picking their opponents, winning all of said matches, artificially bloating their CR to the point that no team in Gamefinder will play them, and then they switch over to the Scheduler. This is what you stated you want to prevent.

Why?

When the team shows up in the "Hardcore" division for the last 5 matches of their season their lack of skill as a coach will be exposed and they'll likely get crushed. If anything it will be an easy match for their opponents.

Lastly, there are so many things in life that are more important than numbers or titles in a video game.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 01:20
FUMBBL Staff
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So far i think all the ideas sound great, but then I have never cared how or why my Blood Bowl is delivered and use every system available to get games.

I have said for a while the time of seasons has to come.

Change is never easy, but it is eternal and should not be feared.

If things dont work they will change. Everyone needs to massively be open minded and see what happens.

Some people wont be, we'll lose some.
Some will come back.
New people will come.

It'll probably all be Ok.
We will play Blood Bowl.

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Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor ulli
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 01:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Jim_Fear wrote:
Matt,

Why are you so frightened to face a non-"hardcore" team?

I'm not frightened to face a non-hardcore team, just I think it's not fair and I don't want to do it, a bit like I don't want to play vs Ranked teams.
I can, but I don't want to do it.
It's a flawed system and I don't want to be part of it.

I can reverse the question: why people don't want to play only with a scheduler?
Are they so frightened to face a team they can't pick/avoid?
Jim_Fear wrote:

When the team shows up in the "Hardcore" division for the last 5 matches of their season their lack of skill as a coach will be exposed and they'll likely get crushed. If anything it will be an easy match for their opponents.

You know, even a very good coach which uses to play Box only could suddenly start playing 15 games with GF then 5 games with scheduler, not just a noob.
I repeat, again: if cross-matching between teams from different division were considered fair, then the Trophy would allow people to play games with Ranked and Box teams, no matter if with Gamefinder or scheduler.
Instead, the Trophy allows only games arranged with scheduler with Box teams which never picked their games.
This should make you think that there is a clear intention of keeping teams from 2 different divisions separated. Otherwise, let's allow people to play with teams from Ranked and Box (or from normal and hardcore divisions in the future) together for the Trophy.
Let's see how much popular will be the Trophy with that format.
Jim_Fear wrote:

Lastly, there are so many things in life that are more important than numbers or titles in a video game.

If there are so many things that are more important in life than numbers or titles then you should not care if I suggest to forbid cross-matching from normal and hardcore teams.
There are more important things, so, don't worry, and accept my suggestion.
After all, if you don't care about fair matchmaking, you will have no issues about how it is made.
There would be an incredible difference if normal teams face hardcore teams? Maybe not, but, since it is possible to have a pure hardcore MM system with more even ground because hardcore teams can't pick, it should be the choice.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 08, 2020 - 13:10; edited 2 times in total
Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 03:14 Reply with quote Back to top

It's great to finally merge [B] and [R] in [C].

I think the new meta will decrease the differences between those teams. No more teams crafted through dozens of games, easier to build players fitting to your own playstyle and so on.

20 games + tourneys and then redraft seems fine.

It will change a lot in the meta, many teams will have to make big sacrifices in order to move on, but it's a good change. And even if it wasn't, it's inevitable, so better embrace it.

How come everything turn to MattDakka fighting windmills? Hell, I'm pretty sure I've seen you rant on Blackbox purity and CR even in those spam 'moving suggestions' threads Very Happy
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 03:29 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
koadah wrote:

There should be a couple of hardcore only tournaments. Though Box didn't get them so hardcore only probably won't either.


This is 100% false.


100%?

Well, OK. They 100% had them while they had them. They also 100% didn't have them while they didn't have them. Like now for example. Mr. Green

When they didn't have them, people asked for them and didn't get them. Is that better PC?

No, we haven't forgotten your awesomeness. Mr. Green

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steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 03:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I would much rather see the mandatory redrafting taking place before entering a tournament rather than after a number of games or playing in a tournament. Personally I like bloated teams, not because they are better but because they are more interesting, and the first 5-10 games are just builder games for me typically. It makes getting games a bit harder at times when my TV is over 2200 but an injury or two will quickly drop it back down. This also has the benefit of putting everyone on the same footing going into an event rather than coming out of it which makes more sense to me.

If mandatory redraft is going to be a requirement going forward I would lobby for as high a spending level as possible.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 03:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Jim_Fear wrote:

Lastly, there are so many things in life that are more important than numbers or titles in a video game.


That is the problem. It is only a game. One game amongst very many.

If people feel that they are getting screwed over, they won't play it. They'll do something else.
Then "hardcore" dies a slow death.

Filling the scheduler with people who build their ideal teams by playing vs non bash teams run by sub 150 coaches isn't everyone's cup of tea.

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[SL] Rumble - 16 team KO - Brand new teams only - ALWAYS recruiting
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 03:58 Reply with quote Back to top

steinerp wrote:
I would much rather see the mandatory redrafting taking place before entering a tournament rather than after a number of games or playing in a tournament. Personally I like bloated teams, not because they are better but because they are more interesting, and the first 5-10 games are just builder games for me typically. It makes getting games a bit harder at times when my TV is over 2200 but an injury or two will quickly drop it back down. This also has the benefit of putting everyone on the same footing going into an event rather than coming out of it which makes more sense to me.

If mandatory redraft is going to be a requirement going forward I would lobby for as high a spending level as possible.


You're gonna need the League division. The rules are specially designed to keep people like you in line. Wink

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 04:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Seasons may require me to retire my move 3 superstar zombie. Sad But with a bit of luck I can get him through one season. Strength 7 Mummy could be rather pricey!

I think the idea of a category of teams that do scheduler only , and another that can choose is a good one overall. If you lose to an “impure” team on the scheduler you can take the moral high ground.
Perhaps also migrate box and ranked top lists to the corresponding two categories.

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steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 05:34 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

You're gonna need the League division. The rules are specially designed to keep people like you in line. Wink


I get that you are half joking but this isn't a viable solution at least for those of us across the Atlantic. North American leagues are sparse already and I have a hard time believing that there would be games to play in an undefined league setup. Hell, we can't even play blackbox currently.

But seriously is there is a problem that I am not seeing with doing a redraft before a tournament/event. The only downside I see is that someone you consider inferior may ask you for a game which you can refuse by clicking no. Meanwhile it has the following benefits:

    It evens out the tournaments so you don't have some teams fresh off a redraft playing a team with 20 games under its belt.

    No one is forced to play a bloated team because they can refuse easily in the gamefinder.

    If you get a player like Gary's superstar zombie, or my 5 injury pro-elf catchers, you can actually work to make him a legend. These aren't good players but they bring something unique to the game.

    It unites the community rather than alienating part of it.


I'm sure there are negatives but I don't see them
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 05:49 Reply with quote Back to top

The primary negative seems to be that the 'intended' use of seasons is that you have a whole season to build up after redrafting before going into a tournament structure. So the goal isn't to purely cap the team size; it's to give everyone a baseline from which they can then work up in order to get into whatever they think it means to be tournament ready.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 06:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I like that R teams could drop into the scheduler at any point, they can already play B teams in all the tournaments, and "Hardcore" means you're hardcore and just play whatever comes up, right?

Scheduler will still be something like TV matched, or games-since-rebuy matched maybe, or a bit of both.

For me, seasons of 12 games or so would be best, and run a 2-season Box Trophy for new teams. That's on the order of 1750 for a big rebuy, and up toward 2250 max size (give or take for changes). Which is more than big enough for any team to be feature-complete and carry lots of stats and dubs if they want. Also makes for max player life before WTR about 60 games (2+ at 24, 3+ at 36, 4+ at 48, 5+ at 60, less for missing games), which fits OK with real player life expectancy in bloodbowl.

Or as I generally describe it, fit to skill anyone to where you want them, but not everyone up to perfect.

Plus, it's not 40+ games needed, just to compete in a major, you could get close enough in 24 games, and box trophy teams could be fit to play after, which seems good. Doesn't take forever to get ready for the next one after the post-tourney redraft, or a game where you lose all your stars.

--

For actual tournaments, minors could be post-draft, 0 games in the season.

RRR for 0-games ever.
Minors for 1st season or 0-games 2nd+.
Majors for any number of games played.

Because, as always, why not both?

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fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 07:00 Reply with quote Back to top

happygrue wrote:
I like calling it "challenge" mode rather than "hardcore" mode

Agree on the pr0n connotation of "hardcore". Disagree on "challenge" -- Ranked is already the challenge league, as coaches challenge each other, vs blind matchmaking.

Ideas:
Dark mode (can't see your opponent before accepting; nod to "black"box)
Blind mode
Box mode
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 08:00 Reply with quote Back to top

steinerp wrote:

But seriously is there is a problem that I am not seeing with doing a redraft before a tournament/event. The only downside I see is that someone you consider inferior may ask you for a game which you can refuse by clicking no. Meanwhile it has the following benefits:

    It evens out the tournaments so you don't have some teams fresh off a redraft playing a team with 20 games under its belt.

    No one is forced to play a bloated team because they can refuse easily in the gamefinder.

    If you get a player like Gary's superstar zombie, or my 5 injury pro-elf catchers, you can actually work to make him a legend. These aren't good players but they bring something unique to the game.

    It unites the community rather than alienating part of it.


I'm sure there are negatives but I don't see them


There will always be rookie rumble for new teams.

Tournaments are meant to happen at the end of the season and theoretically for tournament ready teams. You complete x number of games at which point you either redraft or enter the tournament. After you win or exit the tournament you are forced to redraft. This is actually in the rule book.

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