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Gartch



Joined: Sep 07, 2012

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 13:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Balle2000 wrote:
Sableheart wrote:
Regarding the merging of box and ranked, I'm currently a box only player. The reason for this is that when I started playing, I didn't have the experience to accurately estimate the strength of a team. Others did, however, and I ended up in some very unfun matchups. With box, I can expect much fairer matchmaking (with some exceptions).

This is an important observation, and challenges the assumption that Blackbox is "hardcore".

It depends for who, when I try to get games in Ranked, I can only get matchs versus beginners/new comers despite I'am offering matchs where I am the underdog from teams perspective: lower TV or bad match-up, usually actually both.
For example: offering me=dwarves vs Undead with my team having lower TV with a TV difference greater than 100, it's still declined by any coach higher than Veteran (yes including Legend and Super Stars).
The reason I don't play in Ranked is I can't (unless I want to bash newcomers or beginners, but it's not fun for me, and I think probably not for them).
But I agree for newcomers: Ranked is probably harder than Black Box because you get picked by the Ranked coachs with what I guess are horrible match-ups.

For the proposed changes: I don't mind having to play in the "New Black Box" versus teams built through gamefinder, but that's my personal opinion, I understand that some other coaches find it unfair.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 13:29 Reply with quote Back to top

The name honestly is the smallest detail, the real issue lies in allowing picker teams to play vs non-picker teams.
I would use simple, self-explanatory names:
Unranked division (or Unranked challenge division), Ranked MM division (or Ranked Blind MM division).
Everybody would understand immediately.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 13:39 Reply with quote Back to top

steinerp wrote:
Garion, the primary benefit is that it allows team to not have to redraft as long as they don't play in a tournament. Your team will still be in a good condition as you get to keep the players you want (up to tv of course). It also means that those players that haven't had time for 20 games are on similar footing, just with less players to choose from


The tone was jokey but the point was serious. Wink

Are you trying to get out of redrafting completely?

Fumbbl's competitive divisions aim to stick as close to the official rules as is feasible.

It seems to the both the letter and the spirit of the new rules are to keep big teams in check.

I believe that attrition is even further reduced so seasons are even more necessary.

If you want to do what the rules are specifically trying to prevent you from doing, then you need to do it in the League division.

Saying that you are on a quiet time zone doesn't gain you much sympathy. I believe that teams will be able to enter the scheduler. Massive teams joining the scheduler on quiet time zones and wiping out much smaller opposition is something that people have been complaining about for years.

Times they are a changing.

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:04
FUMBBL Staff
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MattDakka having expressed your preference and argued it forcefully, is it not also time to be open minded and see what happens?

Until how the skills are bought, costed and valued is more clear, and the size and complexity teams are going to grow to known, sure a damnation of teams generated a certain way you disapprove of is a little premature?

might it not be possible that teams generated in 'hardcore' and 'damn those filthy pickers lets call them a bad name' end up quite similar?

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Hovring



Joined: Oct 29, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
I'm confused why people keep talking about doing the redraft before the tourney, the whole point of the tourney is to do at the end of the season, your team should be in peak condition going into it, its the thing to aim for?


I think having 20 games building up for a tourney is too much and if you have a bad game some you will need to start over. I know it's not much different from how it is now, which I why I almost never play in the majors, since I don't like spending ages cherrypicking games to get my team in shape.

These new rules can really help keep teams in check and make it easier to compete in the majors, without having to invest ages in building a team for it. But to give tourneys something extra I suggested a higher redraft cap for them - look at it as advertising money from the tourneys.

Quote:

steinerp wrote:
Garion, the primary benefit is that it allows team to not have to redraft as long as they don't play in a tournament. Your team will still be in a good condition as you get to keep the players you want (up to tv of course). It also means that those players that haven't had time for 20 games are on similar footing, just with less players to choose from


This was not the intention with my suggestion. I think we should have seasons for all teams. But an extra redraft before and after a tourney. You could go directly to another tourney with an increased TV cap as well.
Rafe



Joined: Apr 27, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:15 Reply with quote Back to top

mekutata wrote:
I think "Hardcore" is not a god name. Maybe call it "Ripper" division?


It's a common gaming term for picking 'hard mode', see: diablo, minecraft, etc
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:17 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:

might it not be possible that teams generated in 'hardcore' and 'damn those filthy pickers lets call them a bad name' end up quite similar?

Example:
Coach A plays Normal Amazon team with GF, deliberately avoids Dwarfs and Chorfs for 19 games, game 20 activates with the scheduler this time (let's say because today he has not much time to wait on GF), he finds Coach B who plays Hardcore Amazon team who has faced some Dwarfs or Chorfs in its previous games (therefore having a team less efficient and with some injuries, less finely tuned).
Maybe the 2 teams are similar, or maybe not, but for sure, coach A had an easier time building/playing his team.
Coach B has fully the right never to face such a team, but with the cross-matching he will be forced to play vs it.
Is asking too much allowing hardcore (or scheduler-only MM or whatever) to play only vs other hardcore coaches?
Apparently yes.
Otherwise, if for people here on FUMBBL there is no difference between playing vs picker and non-picker teams, I suggest to make the next Trophy with cross-matching enabled.
If cross-matching is considered fair, then let's apply it to Trophy as well.
If it's not applied, then probaby it's not considered fair.
Rafe



Joined: Apr 27, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Can you please, for one moment, leave borderline conspiracy theories and explain to me this hypothetical person who:

- Hardcore cherry picks in R for 15 games
then
- Throws this carefully curated team into B for 5

What is their motivation? These type of people never even play fair matchups in R when they can pick their opponent.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe they don't have enough time that day to find a game, or nobody accepts their offers that day yet they have the urge to play a game.
It's not an impossible scenario.
Anyway, the logical reason is: if I don't pick, I don't want to play vs pickers.
Box doesn't allow R teams for the same reason.
It's too easy to be able to pick, then play a scheduler game, then pick again.
The simple fact that the normal teams would have 2 ways of finding games would make them more advantageous to play compared to hardcore teams.
The elephant in the room is not wanting to remove the picking from FUMBBL for purpose of gaining CR and playing Majors (nothing against picking in League division because League teams don't earn CR and don't play Majors).
Picking could be removed by transferring all the R teams to B division (or L if coach is not interested anymore in competitive playing) and from then on playing only with scheduler, if you want to join Majors and gain CR.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Rafe wrote:
Can you please, for one moment, leave borderline conspiracy theories and explain to me this hypothetical person who:

- Hardcore cherry picks in R for 15 games
then
- Throws this carefully curated team into B for 5

What is their motivation? These type of people never even play fair matchups in R when they can pick their opponent.


It is simply the assumption that a team that is able to pick some of its games is likely to be stronger than a tean that can't.

How much stronger? Who can say?
It may simply be that perception is more important than fact.
I suspect that it may not take many bad games vs seemingly pimped opposition for people to bail, or become pimpers themselves.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Also, you don't need to build a super farmed team to have an advantage, even managing to build a single player just better than your opponent (I used a mirror match not by coincidence), for example an AG 5 Catcher or Blitzer, can make the difference.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Hovring wrote:
Garion wrote:
I'm confused why people keep talking about doing the redraft before the tourney, the whole point of the tourney is to do at the end of the season, your team should be in peak condition going into it, its the thing to aim for?


I think having 20 games building up for a tourney is too much and if you have a bad game some you will need to start over. I know it's not much different from how it is now, which I why I almost never play in the majors, since I don't like spending ages cherrypicking games to get my team in shape.

These new rules can really help keep teams in check and make it easier to compete in the majors...


ah ok fair enough, yeah 20 games might be too much, I dunno, it's hard to say, it still seems preferable to what we have now, which is pimp your team up as much as you want.

Its a decent starting point though, and I guess christer will be keeping a close eye on it, and if needed reduce the season length over time.

Having the redraft before a tournament makes no sense to me though. Maybe a minor tournament could do this? whereas the majors would typically be for teams closer to the end of their 20 games

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

So, my last post assumed things that are not true at all.

--

Spoiler: new season 1300k cap (not including fans) and +20k price per season on each retained player, always.

--

Given that, I am completely in favour of cutting all old teams to 1300 at first transition, at +20k price per 20 games, however many spp banked they should have since their last skill up, and away we go.

Won't carry more than 2-3 players through each season I think, maybe more on younger squads, but not much, and less if you keep someone really old.

But no point keeping old ones when rebuilding particular players is essentially guaranteed (outside specific stat combinations), so let me get on with doing that, building a team as big as I can is great fun for me, and doing it over again, I've found in BB16, is also great fun.

It's much less fun once they're huge because playing them doesn't really go anywhere, plus the game isn't great up there.

This though, this is build a team, forever. Always building. One major shot with the best build, then build again, from tiny. Awesome. Love it. Go. This is the bit I like and it has an end and then it starts again! That's excellent for me.

--

Also Matt, people who put their team in the scheduler have giving up on picking and are thus not pickers. Like, my Box Gobs play most of their games in the Goblin XFL, and are still Box Gobs. Welcome to fumbbl. Smile

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:00
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Thoughts and musings:

- In general I like and fully support the new proposals. I’ve been advocating for a ‘season’ main division since 2016 Smile

- I agree with Garion’s proposal that keeping first season teams matched against each other might be a good idea. Having used seasons in League for a few years I can say IMO season 1 teams are weaker and the curve flattens out quite quickly after that as the TV cap is normally achievable for season 2+ teams.

- I’m not totally sure on the ability to end your season at any time. This seems like it could be abused to avoid the consequences of injuries in some circumstances. Maybe there should be a ‘window’ of so many games min/max?

- I agree with Rafe that the Hardcore name is fine. It’s a common term used by other games and I think conveys what the mode is intended for. I also think it’s fine to have scheduler only and ‘mixed’ teams as initially proposed, with the hardcore mode just being a kudos

- Picking up on steinerb and Hovrings points, I think it might be interesting to have a new majors schedule with differing entry requirements. You could have a hardcore only one, or one where you only get to play 5 ‘prep’ games after a season end so you go into it at lower TV. Or you could set Tv limits, so people can build teams towards entry into a specific tournament. ie. ‘The warp stone open is up next, so after this rebuy I’ve only got 50TV I can add to stay below the entry cap’

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

@tussock: with new system normal teams can choose to play with GF and scheduler every game.
They don't have to decide and then stick to GF or scheduler forever, they can play with both systems.
Instead, hardcore teams would have to play always with scheduler vs other hardcore and normal teams.
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