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Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:13 Reply with quote Back to top

I don’t find the Hardcore segregation argument compelling. A picked R team will have a higher TV than a legit B team. You won’t ever have a circumstance where a picked team is any better than the similar TV B team, unless you fail to follow very basic and intuitive TV streamlining practices. If you fail to fire TV bloating injured players that is your own fault and you can’t blame the picked team for not having injured players. I understand that in previous environments a picked team could cycle through hundreds of players looking for +st and crazy mutation combos, but that just won’t be possible with a 20 game season.

To argue FOR the ability of R teams to use the scheduler; I generally have a specific tram I want to play at a time. And often I will activate that lone team and not get a game. If I had a R team as proposed, I could immediately enter GF to find a game instead of waiting around for another shot at the draw, which of course could result in another disappointing lack of a game. Allowing R teams to double dip will maximize the possibility of getting a game, especially when time is scarce.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:24 Reply with quote Back to top

If all the R teams and B teams were in the same MM division, you would not struggle to find a game with the scheduler.
You struggle because some people play R and don't activate in B.
If R coaches had to play in B (to gain CR and to play in Majors) suddenly they would have an incentive to play in B.
Very simple.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 08, 2020 - 15:28; edited 1 time in total
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:26 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If all the R teams and B teams were in the same MM division, you would not struggle to find a game with the scheduler.
You struggle because some people play R and don't activate in B.
If R had to play in B (to gain CR and to play in Majors) suddenly they would have an incentive to play in B.
Very simple.


Yeah but if you segregate the R from the B in the scheduler you will negate the advantage. It only works because the activated R teams go into the same pool as all the B teams to maximize the matchup potential.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't segregate, I'm suggesting to merge Ranked teams into Box division forever.
From then on, they play in B with scheduler only.
The Box userbase suddenly is increased, and Box scheduler can work better, because more people would activate.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:42
FUMBBL Staff
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tussock wrote:
So, my last post assumed things that are not true at all.

--

Spoiler: new season 1300k cap (not including fans) and +20k price per season on each retained player, always.

--

Given that, I am completely in favour of cutting all old teams to 1300 at first transition, at +20k price per 20 games, however many spp banked they should have since their last skill up, and away we go.

Won't carry more than 2-3 players through each season I think, maybe more on younger squads, but not much, and less if you keep someone really old.

But no point keeping old ones when rebuilding particular players is essentially guaranteed (outside specific stat combinations), so let me get on with doing that, building a team as big as I can is great fun for me, and doing it over again, I've found in BB16, is also great fun.

It's much less fun once they're huge because playing them doesn't really go anywhere, plus the game isn't great up there.

This though, this is build a team, forever. Always building. One major shot with the best build, then build again, from tiny. Awesome. Love it. Go. This is the bit I like and it has an end and then it starts again! That's excellent for me.

--

Also Matt, people who put their team in the scheduler have giving up on picking and are thus not pickers. Like, my Box Gobs play most of their games in the Goblin XFL, and are still Box Gobs. Welcome to fumbbl. Smile


Oh wow, 1300 is a lot lower than I expected, but I like it. I’ve always held the opinion that Bb wasn’t designed for night TV and doesn’t handle it very well.

I agree wit’s all of Tussock’s post

Also @MattDakka, you’re derailing the thread to argue one very specific point over and over. There’s a lot to discuss here. If you want to discuss only that one issue, please create a new thread.

Thanks!

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Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:51 Reply with quote Back to top

@Joshua, this thread was about Christer’s blog post which doesn’t mention a 1300 TV redraft, so technically you are derailing this thread and you should create your own Smile (Or use the already created leaks thread Smile)

@Matt gotcha, I thought you wanted to segregate, I am all for the elimination of GF. BB2 works fine without a GF, FUMBBL would work equally well IMO. If you want to pick your games join an open style [L]
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:53 Reply with quote Back to top

My apologies for derailing the thread, I just wanted to reply to Mingoose. Embarassed


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 08, 2020 - 15:57; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:55 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
My apologies for derailing the thread, I just wanted to reply to Mingoose.


Ha ha. Is it derailing?

Maybe it is a good thing if people can only find one thing that they really disagree on. Wink

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steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 15:57 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

Are you trying to get out of redrafting completely?


Not entirely, if you want to be eligible for event you would need to redraft but if you are willing to give that up in order to develop players. That is your choice.

koadah wrote:

Fumbbl's competitive divisions aim to stick as close to the official rules as is feasible.

It seems to the both the letter and the spirit of the new rules are to keep big teams in check.


We both know that wasn't always the case in the past and frankly isn't now as seasons aren't used currently.

Quote:

I believe that attrition is even further reduced so seasons are even more necessary.


From what I have the answer is yes and no. Deaths are down ~4% but long term injuries which generally lead to retirement are up 15%. No if you are redrafting it lets you avoid these injuries.

Quote:

If you want to do what the rules are specifically trying to prevent you from doing, then you need to do it in the League division.


I don't want to get into the intent of the rules as I think that is very hard to know and trying to take a set of rules designed for a real life league and imply that they have intent for a worldwide league is very difficult. If I was setting something up at my store I would probably redraft/restart after 12 games/6 weeks because any more than that and you have players start to not show up as their schedule changes, new players feel excluded, etc.

Quote:

Saying that you are on a quiet time zone doesn't gain you much sympathy. I believe that teams will be able to enter the scheduler. Massive teams joining the scheduler on quiet time zones and wiping out much smaller opposition is something that people have been complaining about for years.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. What makes you think that blackbox (or whatever the new name is) will magically start working? Forcing people to play a specific style doesn't seem as likely to achieve that as opening it up for everyone.

Quote:
Times they are a changing.

They always are and we should make sure they change for the better. I would rather see the default style of play to be inclusive with the elitist play it my way style as a league rather than the other way around. I don't think that beer and pretzel and hardcore competitive have to be mutually exclusive. But that is me and maybe the majority/Christer feel otherwise.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 16:26
FUMBBL Staff
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Mingoose wrote:
@Joshua, this thread was about Christer’s blog post which doesn’t mention a 1300 TV redraft, so technically you are derailing this thread and you should create your own Smile (Or use the already created leaks thread Smile)

@Matt gotcha, I thought you wanted to segregate, I am all for the elimination of GF. BB2 works fine without a GF, FUMBBL would work equally well IMO. If you want to pick your games join an open style [L]


While I know you were joking, Christer did mention it as an ‘aggressive TV cap’ that he said the site would stick to, it’s just the amount that wasn’t mentioned....

But that’s besides the point really. People can discuss the divisional structure if they want to, but preferably not at the expense of all other discussion. Having seen it many times before it appeared to me to be devolving into a ‘purity of box’ discussion and that would be a shame when there are so many interesting changes that people can give feedback on. Apologies of that was not the case, but experience tells me it likely was Wink

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Jogrenaught



Joined: Mar 18, 2020

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 16:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe this was already mentioned. But its a big thread and im sorry if im repeating someone.

I really appreciate how on top of this you are. I think thats awesome. I wish the little army designer guy was as quick to consider changes like you are.

I think that re drafting is meant to help with TV bloat? But I would love to see it in any division or whatever. Maybe the blackbox itself can have a tournament for X amount of teams when a pile of them reach 20 games.

Like say, you play 20 games and a bunch of other folks do. Then, theres a tournament pool they have to go in. This will pin the best against the best mid box. The box randomly gets the single elimination tournament started when X amount of teams fill it. Then after the tournament, re draft and they get 20 more games?

I have no idea how or if that would work in programming or whats possible on fumbbl. I am not a programmer. Just a teacher with ideas.

Its just an idea. If blackbox truly is where the best of the best are supposed to go, then they should regularly be pinned against the best and doing this provides a resolution to that end.
paradocks



Joined: Jun 14, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 17:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm very sad thinking about how the Seasons rule could destroy the fluff in the game.

In this thread everyone seems to equate big bloaty teams with coaches who have all day to spend with the purpose of gaining a competitive edge. Whereas all my high TV teams are terrible in terms of performance, but I have more fun than anyone else playing with these terrible teams while I lose.

My favorite teams to play are the clunky 15 year old ones with hobgoblins that have pass block and shadowing. Crafting lore for your loyal players and franchises is just as much fun as the actual rolling of dice for me.

I understand that for most people the competitive aspect is the main drive, but spare a thought for the fun guys like The Great Gobbo! Wouldn't FUMBBL be a much more boring place without them?
Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 17:15 Reply with quote Back to top

My concern is around the transition, specifically relating to current user run leagues [L] in progress.

I was in a stunty league many years ago when we there were user run leagues in the division which was amazing (as stunty league is). There was then a point at some stage where someone was given mandate to look after stunty, and "fixed" all the rosters. There was no community discussion and no warning. One day it just happened. From memory a whole heap of players picked up Loner or Secret Weapon, which broke the division. It caused many of the rosters to have significant changes and killed the league mid season. From memory, the season didn't finish and there wasn't another one.

I approached the guy that did it in IRC (I can't even remember his name), and he was "Respect mah authorotaaa!". His attitude was that he had the cape now, so he got to make arbitrary decisions as a dictator, and if we didn't like it then we could choose to not play stunty. He thought it was funny that our league died.

This totally burnt me on stunty league.

Now the changes sucked, but from memory 90% of the league was nurglings and tzeentch (which were both strong teams), so I can live with those rosters getting nerfed if balance was required. The problem for me was that this was implemented with zero warning.

There is little impact if this happens in [R] or [B] as there are no user run tournaments for these, but implementing this in [L] without an option for turning if off could really hurt leagues.

I'd suggest that [L] be left as open as possible with "Seasons" functionality as an option (if possible). If this can't be done for functionality reasons, then a published transition date for the [L] division would be great so tournament organisers could plan ahead.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 18:07 Reply with quote Back to top

paradocks wrote:
I'm very sad thinking about how the Seasons rule could destroy the fluff in the game.

In this thread everyone seems to equate big bloaty teams with coaches who have all day to spend with the purpose of gaining a competitive edge. Whereas all my high TV teams are terrible in terms of performance, but I have more fun than anyone else playing with these terrible teams while I lose.

My favorite teams to play are the clunky 15 year old ones with hobgoblins that have pass block and shadowing. Crafting lore for your loyal players and franchises is just as much fun as the actual rolling of dice for me.

I understand that for most people the competitive aspect is the main drive, but spare a thought for the fun guys like The Great Gobbo! Wouldn't FUMBBL be a much more boring place without them?

People playing for fun could still do it in League division (they could migrate from R to L), maybe without Seasons (so, they would not have to redraft, if they like super high TV teams).
Nobody said they must stop playing.
Also, if they don't play competitively (for whatever reasons, not implying they are stupid or noobs, just, they don't care/are not interested in competitive play) then they should do it in League, an unranked non-competitive division.
Non-competitive coaches should not play in competitive division.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 18:24 Reply with quote Back to top

steinerp wrote:
...


It looks as though you are trying to get your teams out of redrafting. Wink

I don't think that that is the way that things are going.

For the most part, I agree with you. which is one of the reasons that I'll be sticking to the League division. Wink

There could be some hard discussions over Secret League Open. Wink

I probably just don't want teams to get as big as you do.

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