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Poll
Why do you play in [R] or [B]
It is where I can easily get pick-up games
47%
 47%  [ 47 ]
I care about my CR and want to improve it
4%
 4%  [ 4 ]
I play mainly for the tournaments
12%
 12%  [ 12 ]
The variety of opponents and teams
14%
 14%  [ 14 ]
I don't play in [R] or [B]
22%
 22%  [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 99


steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 01:39 Reply with quote Back to top

At the risk of derailing this thread even more (although we have nearly 100 responses to the poll which is great IMP), Matt if you are complaining about wanting to play more highly rated coaches, play in gamefinder and only accept games vs. those coaches. Smile
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 03:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I had a Box game recently against a much lower CR coach. I got very lucky and turned a near certain loss into a win. My CR went up 0.01. If I had lost...

Box is actually detrimental for your CR because you often end up playing against lower ranked coaches, and the site punishes you too much for losing or even drawing to a lower ranked coach (vs the natural variance of Blood Bowl results).

So yeah, when you play Ranked, it pays to be a "picker" and play higher CR opponents. There There is just so little upside in playing down (from a CR point of view).

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 12:55 Reply with quote Back to top

steinerp wrote:
At the risk of derailing this thread even more (although we have nearly 100 responses to the poll which is great IMP), Matt if you are complaining about wanting to play more highly rated coaches, play in gamefinder and only accept games vs. those coaches. Smile

I would, but there is an issue: I can't be sure that those high CR coaches didn't farm their teams through picking noobs/favourable match-ups, thus gaining an unfair meta-advantage in terms of better team development for the TV, unless I do the same, i.e. picking noobs/match-ups. Very Happy
Also, I have no time to waste staring at the Gamefinder and the patience of accepting/declining offers.
If those high CR Ranked coaches are so sure of their skills, they can play in Box.
If they are good they don't have to fear the blind MM, right?
About derailing the thread: feel free to send me a PM, so we don't derail the thread, I will try to reply to your objections, as I did with koadah via PM (or I can just invite you to that PM and save the hassle of rewriting stuff).
As an aside, I don't think that talking about B and R in a thread about the 2 divisions is off-topic, but it's your thread, you're the boss! Smile

In Box I can't pick, yet my CR gain is based on the anti-picker system used for Ranked, which adds an extra penalty in the CR formula based upon the rank difference of the two coaches (Star, Super Star, Legend etc.)
Just this thing makes gaining CR points harder, because if I find a noob yes I can win easily, in theory, but I gain few CR points or 0, if I lose, I lose a lot, as Grod said.
The only advantage of Box over Ranked it could be finding quicker games, but you have to win a lot to gain CR consistently.
I often struggle to gain few CR points (less than 1 per game, it's 0.something due to my opponents being lower CR, then I lose just a game (or even tie) and my CR drops by 1.11 or more.

In Ranked, I could pick a noob AND the match-up as well, so I have more control on the variables.
In Box, I can find a noob but I can't avoid the match-up, if not favourable for my team, as I could do in Ranked.
I pay in the Box the price for picking a game (i.e. controlling the match-up and opponent variable) even if I can't actually control those 2 variables in the Box, because the Box CR formula is the same as the Ranked CR formula, with the anti-picker element.
Maybe it's clearer put in this way.
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 14:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I play Leagues because it's a friendlier environment.

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cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 14:40 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

I would, but there is an issue: I can't be sure that those high CR coaches didn't farm their teams through picking noobs/favourable match-ups, thus gaining an unfair meta-advantage in terms of better team development for the TV,


Explain this to me, when 2 teams of the same TV play eachother does it matter what the have done in the past and how they got there?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 14:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Two teams of the same TV are not necessarily equal in terms of efficiency.
For example, if you face only soft teams with your Wood Elves and you get them to TV 2100, then you face a Wood Elf team 2100 TV but with more injuries due to facing more bashers (injuries don't decrease TV) suddenly the team who picked more soft games will have an advantage.
It's harder to play vs soft opponents-only in the Box.
cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 14:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Sure but when you judge if a matchup is 'fair' you compare the 2 teams right? Not how they got there. So you can choose to play fair matchups against the Ranked pickers if you want. Start playing Ranked!

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 15:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Wait, the problem is: if I challenge my opponent with a fair match and he doesn't accept no, I can't play fair match-ups, because I need my opponent to accept the game.
If opponent dodges I can't play, so I'm forced to pick people either unable to judge a fair match-up or simply not interested in it, or not to play at all.
So, all tends to boil down to pick/get picked/avoid games.
It could be fair IF everybody could judge a game and were interested in fair games.
We know that not everybody is interested in fair games nor everybody is able to judge whether a game is fair and balanced. Some are, but many are not (not just because evil pickers, but maybe just casual coaches playing fluffy teams for fun or just wanting to play a game, no matter if unfair).
cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 15:11 Reply with quote Back to top

But even you, who is soooooo interested in fair games end up playing mostly unfair games against lesser than you coaches, no?
How are you better than the Ranked pickers in terms of fair games? Just because you play Box?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 15:13 Reply with quote Back to top

In Ranked, people could dodge fair offers, and even fair offers can still be refused if a coach doesn't want to play vs a race.
For example, my starting Dwarfs, Orcs, Chorfs struggled to find a game in Ranked vs same TV teams, my HE more developed never struggled.
It's not just about how much is fair, in Ranked it's important the "perception" of fairness and how much bashy a team is (does it have many MBs, Clawmb, Dirty Players? etc.).
Elves can win 2-0 yet they are challenged more often because they generally are not bashy, so, even if they win you can hope to bash them and get some SPPs (or just not to be bashed and not lose your precious pixels).
By the way, before commenting the fairness of my Box matches, look at your profile, compare the win rate you have in Ranked and in Box, the big win rate difference either suggests some "selection" of your games or assuming no selection, easier opponents in Ranked than in Box.
If I were you, I would play only in the Box, but I know you want to play for tournaments and build your teams in Ranked.
I end playing vs lower opponents because I'm Legend so most of times I will play vs non-Legends, they are not as common as lower CR coaches, it's a Gauss curve as you know.
When I play vs lower CR coaches I win little CR or nothing, consider that, because the Box formula has the anti-picker system to discourage picking in Ranked.
So, I pay for Ranked possibility of picking games even if I can't pick games in Box.
If I face a lower CR coach I don't pay only the CR difference and gain already fewer CR points, on top of that the system considers my game like if I picked it on a Gamefinder, when I didn't, it was the scheduler picking the game for me.
Since I can't pick in Box, I should not be penalized by the formula as I could pick.
I should just gain fewer CR points, yes, right, but no anti-picking point loss on top of the low CR gain.
cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 15:26 Reply with quote Back to top

If you look more closely you may see that the big difference is maybe due to 25% of my Box games being Goblins/Flings/Ogres, mainly before the Box Trophy era and the great variety it brought. Ofc I don't deny picking in Ranked, I even state it in my profile. As for tourneys, I have about the same tournament winners in both divisions and my fav and most successful teams are mostly Box

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 15:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, then if you don't pick, there is no reason to play in Ranked, just play in the Box.
Only if you pick or want to play Majors you play in Ranked.

Ok, you played tier 3 in the Box and that lowered your win rate, so, let's not consider your Box tier 3.
Let's compare your Ranked non-tier 3 races to Box races:

Amazons: 81% Ranked, 69% Box;
Chaos: 56% Ranked, 61% Box
Chorfs: 76% Ranked, 68% Box
C.Rene: 61% Ranked, 56% Box
DE: 72% Ranked, 60% Box
Dwarfs 69% Ranked, 64% Box
EU: 76% Ranked, 63% Box
HE: 76% Ranked, 63% Box
Human: 58% Ranked, 63% Box
Lizardmen: 67% Ranked, 73% Box
Necro: 68% Ranked, 58% Box
Norse: 68% Ranked, 64% Box
Nurgle: 71% Ranked, 58% Box
Orc: 73% Ranked, 64% Box
Undead: 70% Ranked, 66% Box
Skaven: 63% Ranked, 88% Box
Slann: 70% Ranked, 61% Box
T.Kings: 62% Ranked, 62% Box
Wood Elf: 56% Ranked, 47% Box

The majority of your Ranked races has higher win rate than the same races in the Box, just few exceptions.
Either you tend to play worse in Box due to suddenly forgetting some of your coaching skills there, or maybe the lack of "selection" and "dodging" has correlation with the win rate difference, or maybe the quality of opposition is higher in Box than in Ranked.
It can be one or more factors of those listed above.

About tournaments: we are not discussing about tournaments, but just about Box and Ranked.
Tournaments are another beast.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 16:05
FUMBBL Staff
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What I really don’t understand is why you’re trying to turn every thread into a box vs ranked argument. Why do you care so much what other people do? No-one is forcing you to play Ranked. Why do you want to force them to play Box?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 16:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not trying to turn every thread, I just reply when people object to my posts.
They should understand that it's the best way to play one-off competitive games, and stop insinuating that Box is not competitive and that Ranked is competitive.
I'm trying to make a constructive debate, not saying: "you must play in the Box, full stop". I provided valid and logical reasons.
Also, I'm just replying to objections and they are all related to R and B, this is a thread about R and B.
By discussing objection people make, I talk about things related to the topic.
But I even said that if somebody wants to discuss, he can send me a PM, if discussing about B and R is a problem here.
Just, don't think I'm hiding, if I don't reply anymore, feel free to send a PM and discuss.
steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2020 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Discussing R and B isn't a problem. But this thread wasn't intended to be a R vs. B. It was meant to be about why you play in either/both not one or the other, if that makes sense.
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