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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 14:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Balle2000 wrote:
koadah wrote:
When you are running a kind of the league that the rules were obviously not designed for, I think that you have a little more wiggle room.

What if the commissioner wants to keep the wiggling to a minimum?


Exactly.

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Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 14:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Is that another non-answer answer?
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 14:59 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Ah. From

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
...we're trying to cater to the full site and any potential newcomers, not just the top end of the tourney scene.


I wondered if you may be "on the council" Wink



"We" as in "we as a community", rather than "I" as in "me, my wants and needs, mimimimimimi".

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SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 15:05 Reply with quote Back to top

For the record, I fully support Christer because I can not be sure I am right.

Christer stated that he feels it very important to newcomers to be able to apply to majors without putting much effort into it.

This was a perpetual Fantasy Football site from the beginning. That is its beauty and that is FUMBBL. Long term development, big teams, highs and lows. Millions of games.

With the currently planned season settings, this is over. I know that the number one goal is to play as per the GW rules so I accept the coming of seasons. Yet I am unhappy with the diversion from the rulebook from the first day. 10k per game, 10k per win, 5k per draw, 1350k budget, this is house ruling, again. I suggest 15 games long seasons, no cap. That would make 1000k+300..600k+200kish treasury budget for redraft (not counting with the additional gold for tourney participation) -> 1750kish teams at season start. Note that a significant part of the budget will be wasted on agent's fee anyway. Yet these teams might go above 2000 until season end. Still, more lasting injuries and agent's fee will make it a grind.

Nice for me. There would be big teams and high TV BB. There would be some space to create a team for your personal coaching style.

However, FUMBBL seems to diverge from the rulebook because of a meta goal: to make the official tournaments easily accessible for newcomers. If the 200 participants put some efforts to the teams, why is a problem to demand some efforts from the new members? Without efforts, dumbness prevails. Efforts make us learn something and get better.

In World of Tanks, you have to put many hundreds of hours in the game to get ready some top class tournament. We are not MMO, we are a small niche community, Christer told me. But hey, here are 4000000 games played? Which other place have near this much? These people put their efforts. A developed team could be used for long term tournament participation which I found a very nice reward for that. Once you made it, you are fine. 80 games should be more than enough which can be done within some months for anyone. Is that really too much to ask for?

Chister is aware that TV difference has weak connection to win probability. He also stated that getting many members is not priority. I feel the current goal contradictory with these concepts, and I feel that the current members who already put their efforts will be sacrifised for the unknown future members.

Again, I might be wrong and this could be the luckiest turn for FUMBBL ever. I just don't see it yet.

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Last edited by SzieberthAdam on Aug 14, 2020 - 17:16; edited 6 times in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 15:21 Reply with quote Back to top

ehhh, I think its healthy overall (not primarily for majors) for teams to cap out around 1800-2000 tv, instead of starting there. teams above 1800 are where people start to really want to avoid playing against them - if people want to avoid those teams, then any teams above that are problems to overall division health (regardless of majors). The majors are just a magnified lens where it's easy to see this - but the real problem is in the competitive divisions.

So while this choice might help majors, I think it (much more importantly!) will help the health of C division.

However, I am very concerned about minmax teams; we know this has been a problem in the past, and Christer hasn't mentioned anything about how the new C scheduler matchmaking will be done, and I want to be reassured that it won't go back to the days of minmax 1000000 tv teams preying on weak new teams; except now it will be preying on weak redrafted teams. I think this is a very serious concern; at least you only had to be a new team once, and you could get away from the sharks if you tried; with redrafting, you will return there every 15ish games, and for casual players that could be a truly terrifying thought.
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 15:36 Reply with quote Back to top

minmaxers should also have a harder time keeping their players from past seasons.

but you can always go full dwarf!

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 15:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Fumbbl ranked and box is not what anybody won reasonably understand a league to be. It's exhibition games with optional tournaments. It would be really easy to justify not having seasons on fumbbl. The closest we have to a season is the calender year of majors meaning you can justify whatever you want with respect to seasons.

So the current proposals are not following the rules with no choice in the matter keeping the site as close to the rules as possible, there is plenty of latitude to not follow seasons or do something far less restricting.

The proposals are a choice, and it's fine to make that choice but let's not hide behind "it's in the rulebook" because that is very disingenuous to hide behind. If these are the rules desired then say so and stand behind them on their merits rather than trying use the rules as a shield. There would not be the contention there is if this was obviously the only possible way forward.

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Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 15:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Guys, stop taking koadah's bait, he's just trolling, as usual.

I think what SzieberthAdam says makes a lot of sense. The official rule is no cap. Redraft cap is an optional rule. And the changes suggested above and beyond that are house rules. With any game, I strongly believe house ruling before you even try the game as written is very rarely a good idea.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
Guys, stop taking koadah's bait, he's just trolling, as usual.


Well, I'm lazy arse and was kinda hoping that Garion would create a League division thread.

I guess I'll just create it myself and leave you to enjoy your competitive division.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 16:23
FUMBBL Staff
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I've been putting a bit of thought into this... I don't really know why, I just find the whole concept intriguing I guess. I came up with the following proposal which is quite different to anything I've seen suggested, but hopefully at least worth considering. Feel free to tell me it's stupid.

Main Divisions
Replace the current R and B divisions with 2 new divisions, [E]xhibition and [C]ompetitive. All current R and B teams go into the Exhibition division. The divisions would work as follows:

Exhibition division uses gamefinder, and is a non-progression division. Teams can play games while never redrafting, but they not earn spps or winnings. Teams can sit here indefinitely.

Competitive division uses the scheduler and works on a 3 month cycle, splitting the year into quarters. This simulates 'Seasons' as they would work in any online shooter. When a team enters a 'Season' they have to go through a drafting/rebuy process (which could be capped at 1300TV, or not TBC). Once they have entered the season they can play up to X games (X to be decided, 10, 15, 20 etc.) as which point their team is put into post-season. Coaches can enter multiple teams into a season. Teams can choose to enter post-season at any time. Once {end of season date} is reached, all teams in the C division are automatically put into post-season.


Teams
Teams can switch between the Exhibition and Competitive divisions at any time. When a team switches from Competitive to Exhibition there are no changes to the roster, but the team is switched to non-progression mode. When a team switches from Exhibition to Competitive they are committing to entering the season and going through the rebuy. They then have until {end of season date} to play up to X games. They can switch out at any time before this, but can't enter the same season again.


Tournaments
At the end of each [C] season cycle their is a Major tournament. Entry is determined by performance during the preceding season, which can be different for each tournament depending on requirements and desired entry numbers. To enter a Major tournament a team must be in the C division and in post-season. Entry could be made automatic or voluntary. The preceding season would effectively serve as a combination of 'Major Qualifier' and Box Trophy.

You could also run tournaments in the E division, or even allow people to run their own as there is no progression.


Reasoning/Conclusion
The goal/result would be an exhibition division where players can play casual games with their current huge bloaty teams, or with teams at their 'peak' after a successful season. These teams would remain frozen in time to be enjoyed.

For people wanting a strong competitive scene there is a time-window run up to each major where you have a fixed number of games that are both builder and qualifier, after which you can enter the major and compete for glory! And then your successful, or more likely unsuccessful team is back in the E division and you can relax and enjoy them, or cut them deep and take them for another spin in the next season.

Seasons could be scored, or ranked or whatever similar to how any online game is doing in their seasons now. This mechanic would be familiar to online gamers new to fumbbl. You're not having to 'build for a major' you're 'competing for a major' and everyone is in the same boat, from the same starting point and with the same end goal.


Sorry that's a bit wordy, but I couldn't think how better to explain it.

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Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 16:30 Reply with quote Back to top

SzieberthAdam wrote:
However, FUMBBL seems to diverge from the rulebook because of a meta goal: to make the official tournaments easily accessible for newcomers.

Stellar analysis Szieberth. Thumbs up.

I refrained from quoting the whole thing, but it made perfect sense.

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Zlefin



Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 16:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Sounds like a good overall plan; I do wonder if there will be more changes before bb2020 release though; and ofc even if there aren't, there's often a need for some errata/patching to rulesets.
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:

Exhibition division uses gamefinder, and is a non-progression division. Teams can play games while never redrafting, but they not earn spps or winnings. Teams can sit here indefinitely.


I like this idea a lot, that gamefinder games can be played with [C] teams, but are res and don't give spp. So any time you can't find a scheduler game or just want a one off you can game finder. Or if someone has their team parked for a tournament they can play. I wouldn't make it a separate division, just that scheduler games work to progress your team and game finder works as friendly rez games.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
At the end of each [C] season cycle their is a Major tournament. Entry is determined by performance during the preceding season, which can be different for each tournament depending on requirements and desired entry numbers. To enter a Major tournament a team must be in the C division and in post-season. Entry could be made automatic or voluntary. The preceding season would effectively serve as a combination of 'Major Qualifier' and Box Trophy.


The appeal of this proposal is that it makes the seasons an actual site-wide competitive thing, rather than just an individual team TV regulation mechanism, like Aging back in LRB4 or Piling On and Spiralling Expenses in CRP.

Of course, it is much closer to BB2 Ladders than to anything Fumbbl used to be like. People who just wanna keep playing their favourite team, can't (unless, in your proposal, they go into non-progression mode, which I don't think is a real subsitute). The whole idea of anybody just throwing a team into a Major is also not there. It's definitely a very big change, on top of all the other changes.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 20:07
FUMBBL Staff
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Verminardo wrote:
The appeal of this proposal is that it makes the seasons an actual site-wide competitive thing, rather than just an individual team TV regulation mechanism, like Aging back in LRB4 or Piling On and Spiralling Expenses in CRP.

Of course, it is much closer to BB2 Ladders than to anything Fumbbl used to be like. People who just wanna keep playing their favourite team, can't (unless, in your proposal, they go into non-progression mode, which I don't think is a real subsitute). The whole idea of anybody just throwing a team into a Major is also not there. It's definitely a very big change, on top of all the other changes.


I mostly agree, but by using Seasons at all it’s already going to be a big change from what Fumbbl currently is so why not embrace it?

I think ‘anyone throwing a team into a major’ is a misnomer. I was suggesting that majors be tied to seasons, so by entering Fumbbl’s ‘Warpstone Open Season’ you are in effect entering a major, and if at the end of X no of games (I think 10 is a good number but others would prefer higher) you’ve preformed well enough you’ll enter the knock-out stage of the competition. It actually makes possible participation wider and more varied, as in effect everyone is entering at 1300TV.

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