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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 01:47 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

There is the problem. The previous version worked well enough to highish TV.

...

So, from that point of view, the new rules are a steaming turd.


I don't think the rules were ever designed for high TV and lead to certain teams being overpowered, particularly Chaos and Pact with their Claw + Mighty Blow + Piling On + Tackle + Block + Juggernaut kill stacks of death.

Fumbbl is literally the only environment where high TV blood bowl became normal, in part because we have ignored at various points rules designed to limit team TV (Seasons isn't new, for example).

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 02:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
koadah wrote:

There is the problem. The previous version worked well enough to highish TV.

...

So, from that point of view, the new rules are a steaming turd.


I don't think the rules were ever designed for high TV and lead to certain teams being overpowered, particularly Chaos and Pact with their Claw + Mighty Blow + Piling On + Tackle + Block + Juggernaut kill stacks of death.

Fumbbl is literally the only environment where high TV blood bowl became normal, in part because we have ignored at various points rules designed to limit team TV (Seasons isn't new, for example).


Do you know what "literally" means? Mr. Green

Whether they were designed for it or not, they worked at higher (comparative) TV than this ruleset allows.
Were chaos really that hardcore after nerfing PO?

Edit: But point taken. On tabletop, we can just ignore GW and play whatever we like. On Fumbbl we have to abide by what can be reasonably coded.

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 02:49 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

Do you know what "literally" means? Mr. Green


literally
/ˈlɪt(ə)rəli/
Learn to pronounce
adverb
in a literal manner or sense; exactly.
"the driver took it literally when asked to go straight over the roundabout"

INFORMAL
used for emphasis while not being literally true.
"I was literally blown away by the response I got"

Definitions from Oxford Languages



I was using it informally Smile

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Traul



Joined: Jun 09, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 02:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Humans, Orcs and Black Orcs are three interesting teams for having easy access to a cheap stunty sneaky git, and the bashing prowess to set up fouls.

With Humans, I think I would rather go for a catcher with DP access on a single. He is occasionally needed to score TDs anyway, might as well make himself useful the rest of the time Laughing
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 02:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Traul wrote:
Grod wrote:
Humans, Orcs and Black Orcs are three interesting teams for having easy access to a cheap stunty sneaky git, and the bashing prowess to set up fouls.

With Humans, I think I would rather go for a catcher with DP access on a single. He is occasionally needed to score TDs anyway, might as well make himself useful the rest of the time Laughing


I have a SG, DP Catcher on my human team that I play tested for half a season, certainly payed his salary in the last few games. Smile
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 08:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Can I make an appeal to reason?

Ok this is the forums and so it's probably pointless.

It is far easier for something you don't like to be "just wrong" rather than motivated by ill intent.

One major issue of "people who are wrong" is that they think they're right and don't realise their error. Accusing them of ill intent will not change their position, and in the off chance they're actually *gasp* astroturfing trolls with strange accounts and mysterious aims, they'll giggle privately at their clever ploy working. Why bother?

So try and be nice. People who are wrong are people too.

In an unrelated train of thought, pile driver does really seem like a great choice for Black Orcs as compared to guard or mighty blow. 110k TV foulers are way better than 45k foulers to risk a 1 on the bribe roll with Wink
dabassman



Joined: Feb 17, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 10:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:


In an unrelated train of thought, pile driver does really seem like a great choice for Black Orcs as compared to guard or mighty blow. 110k TV foulers are way better than 45k foulers to risk a 1 on the bribe roll with Wink


I think one dedicated pile driver Black Orc (PD+DP+SG) in a team focused on fouling (with bribes and biased referee) could be nasty and pretty safe from being excluded.
Muff2n



Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Traul wrote:
Grod wrote:
Humans, Orcs and Black Orcs are three interesting teams for having easy access to a cheap stunty sneaky git, and the bashing prowess to set up fouls.

With Humans, I think I would rather go for a catcher with DP access on a single. He is occasionally needed to score TDs anyway, might as well make himself useful the rest of the time Laughing



That's old thinking. Get with the program. The only time catchers are for scoring is to get them SPP to get SG. After that you don't want them holding the ball because it might dissuade you from fouling with them.
Lasgalen



Joined: Jun 30, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 11:06 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
BB is unbalanced even in private leagues. I played in 3, and killer teams developed like in perpetual MM, with enough games.
Of course, if you play a league made by 8 games you will not notice the unbalances for the simple reasons multiple skill stacks and stat freaks will not be possible or very rare.
But that is not because BB is balanced for league, but because many flaws don't appear in short leagues (which are the most common in real life TT BB).
Short leagues have other issues, i.e. top tier 1 teams are better than the teams requiring more time to develop.


I think that is what I'm trying to convey... the game are fundamentally not designed to play 20-30 games a season... I do think that about 15 games are stretching it to the limits. Teams balance will start to spiral out of control after this more and more.

If matchmaking should stay balanced for the majority of teams in the game then I think teams should stay in the 5-15 game development state as much as possible.

In my opinion that probably would produce the most fun environment for most of the teams. This is just a guess from my side though.

I also understand that not everyone would like it to be that way and do like the less balanced version of the game. I do think that overall in BB2020 it is slightly less violent, but only just a little.



In my lesser experience i just don't agree.
I might be corrected by other coaches but here's the thing:

BB is not balanced at any tv (on puropose) so what high tv basically does is switch what's tier 1 and what's not.
Some teams shine at low some require development.
Not true also that fumbbl is all about matchmaking (XD XD XD)
So, why an unbalanced game is ok at low tvs and not fair at high tvs? because some things just fly over some coaches heads passed a mid range of tvs?
Also, why put brakes at a game that can be alive on its own (and who cares about being balanced).

Everything, that i read so far, from fouling to redraft, from passing rules to spp new (horrendous) rules point in a specific direction and blink to some REALLY RECOGNIZIBLE teams while makes some teams' life harder and those teams were not even spammed everywhere since they were lower tiers already .

In the end, in my idea, how new rules that reduce variation on the pitch actions making it harder (like passing), reduce the range of Tvs that you are likely going to play, reduce, therefore, the range of teams competitive or worthy to put efforts in and reduce team building abilities to determine coaching skills (if you go always random to save tv and recycle when you don't like the outcome, guess which teams can do that easily?) and gain advantage on the next match, how all these things enchance a game that needed, actually, just few adjustments to work just fine?
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 11:36
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Fouling is and always has been the coolest and most satisfying way to kill an opponent. This new ruleset isn’t a true return to the beauty of 3rd edition, but it’s a start Wink

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 11:38 Reply with quote Back to top

dabassman wrote:
Java wrote:


In an unrelated train of thought, pile driver does really seem like a great choice for Black Orcs as compared to guard or mighty blow. 110k TV foulers are way better than 45k foulers to risk a 1 on the bribe roll with Wink


I think one dedicated pile driver Black Orc (PD+DP+SG) in a team focused on fouling (with bribes and biased referee) could be nasty and pretty safe from being excluded.


You're investing a lot of resources and skills for something that needs a knock down to even consider using.

It's a case of diminishing returns IMHO

Fouling is better, but it's still something that cheap, expendable players should do, not ST4 positionals that you need for other jobs as well.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 12:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:

I was using it informally Smile


Ah, I see. I thought that you were using it as some new and trendy negative. Clearly, language is always changing.

They have some pretty big teams at Cyanide. Both in MM and in leagues. We had some big teams at StuntyLeeg.com. I imagine that they had big teams at France Blood Bowl. Though my French wasn't good enough to try it.

Maybe not "normal", but I've created big teams directly on tabletop and in JavaBowl.

Hmmm. I guess we can now do that on Fumbbl. Mr. Green


If the rules allow 6 or 7 skills per player then it is designed for high TV. If not well designed Wink

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 01:50 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
Garion wrote:

You get +1 with dp. Sg = 1 in6 chance of sending off


Ref do not eject the player only if double is done on the armour roll. If double is done on injury roll the risk to be ejected is
0,5 (50% of probability to double 2D6 on the injury table)
*
(probability NOT doing a 6 in argue's call= 5/6) --> 0,4 -->
40% of probability to be sent out in case armour roll is success (and so also your opponent very likely go out)

You are not spout if you double in the armour roll, but if you do not succeed the armour roll nothing vs you, nothing vs your opponent.
For sure player with SG +DP will foul every single turn and in this case the probability to be sent out after two turn increase over 50%.

If I have correctly understood the new rules


My statistic is totally wrong... sorry , I have drunk too many Bloodweiser Kegs Embarassed

obviously the probability to be sent off by referee today is the probability to make a double rolling two times 2D6
calling the two events
A= Roll a Double on 2D6 during the 1st 2D6 ROLL
C= Roll a Double on 2D6 during the 2nd 2D6 ROLL
P(sent off during a foul) = P(A)+P(C) = 1/6+1/6 = 1/3
In the reality the probability is LOWER because we are assuming you will roll always two times the dices which is not the case. The secone event (C) will happen only if you break your opponent's AV and this is also dependant by offensive assist, DP skills etc...

so 1/3is the "maximum" probability to be sent off by the Ref during a foul with the current BB rules.
To calculate the exact value of the probability to be sent off during a foul you have to consider these three events

A= Roll a Double on 2D6 during the 1st 2D6 ROLL
B= Break Armour Value during 1st 2D6 ROLL
C= Roll Double on 2D6 duiring 2nd 2D6 Roll

P(to be sent off) = P(A) + P(B)ANDP(C) (*)
Where P(A)=1/6 and P(C)= 1/6
P(B) is dependent by AV, DP, Offensive assist ecc...
So the more you have offensive assists the more you have the chance to break the AV of you enemy and so to get possibility to roll second 2D6nd the more likely you will be sent off (but the more likely you will injury your opponent)


Let's consider now BB2020 new rule and a player equipped with Sneaky Git.
The probability to be sent off by the Referee is just P(B)*P(C) because during the first roll on the armour the referee will never spot you even if you roll a double
So to be precise the probability to be sent off during a foul is less or equal than 1/6 ( equal to 1/6 in the case you have the certitude to break your opponent AV)

....Now I will discover again that I have done other mistakes Razz

(*) I am not totally sure of the second part of the formula in reality the second probability is Conditional Probability to have event B and C but in case of statistic indipendence I think the approximation is acceptable.
Foho



Joined: May 05, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 15:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Probability of getting sent off with 100% armor break foul:
It's 1/6 with sneaky git
It's 1/6 + 5/6*1/6 (11/36).
So slightly under 2/3. By doing 1/6+1/6 you calculate one of the outcome twice (the one where you roll double twice).

If you had a 1/3 chance to break armor, it would simply be :
with sneaky git: 1/6*1/3
without sneaky git: 1/6+(5/6*1/6*1/3)
Sneaky git give a 5/36 improvement vs sent off AT BEST.

The biggest upside of the new killer combo is that all teams have access to it and it does not benefit from claw, so it's much less unfair and it helps stuntie A LOT.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 17:51 Reply with quote Back to top

@argos_72 can you fix that quote please. I did not say any of that. I'm not sure why my name is there. Thanks.

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